Marriage is Totally Gay

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lunchstealer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Aug 2018, 17:25

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 16:29
One 'whites only' lunch counter in town isn't a problem, segregation all over town is. I'm not sure where it tips. I am sure that in 2018 America it's not necessary to force people to provide their services to all race, gender, religion, because discrimination based on those criteria is not generally tolerated.
I know some parts of the country where that wouldn't be all that true, at least for gays and maybe Muslims and Hispanics with accents.

I see the swastika/wedding thing as a false equivalence for reasons I've outlined upstream. You can tell me that sex discrimination should be allowed, but I'm not going to buy into the idea that refusing to participate in objectionable political messaging is the same thing as refusing to do a service you'd do for a man that you wouldn't do for a woman.
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Aresen
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 18 Aug 2018, 17:57

lunchstealer wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 17:25
Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 16:29
One 'whites only' lunch counter in town isn't a problem, segregation all over town is. I'm not sure where it tips. I am sure that in 2018 America it's not necessary to force people to provide their services to all race, gender, religion, because discrimination based on those criteria is not generally tolerated.
I know some parts of the country where that wouldn't be all that true, at least for gays and maybe Muslims and Hispanics with accents.

I see the swastika/wedding thing as a false equivalence for reasons I've outlined upstream. You can tell me that sex discrimination should be allowed, but I'm not going to buy into the idea that refusing to participate in objectionable political messaging is the same thing as refusing to do a service you'd do for a man that you wouldn't do for a woman.
There are definitely some 'services' I would do for a woman that I wouldn't do for a man. ;)
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Number 6
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Number 6 » 18 Aug 2018, 18:00

Warren wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 16:29

And I was about to say "Exactly, and you shouldn't have to bake a cake for them." But you're not a cake baker, and then it hit me. As an EMT, I actually don't think you should be allowed that luxury. If some gay-bashing skinhead is lying with his dick in the dirt and you get called to the scene, your job is to provide the best care you're capable of. I think that goes beyond an ethical duty. It's a legal duty as well. You don't get to say, "fuck that guy".
I expect you actually agree with that. But I'm not sure where and how I draw the line now.
In principle, I'm a free association guy. You don't have to bake cakes, you don't have to host vloggers, you don't have to do business with anyone you don't want to do business with for whatever reason.
But I have exceptions. In addition to Emergency responders, I don't think most doctors and medical service providers get to make that call either.
And there comes a point when free association becomes institutional oppression. One 'whites only' lunch counter in town isn't a problem, segregation all over town is. I'm not sure where it tips. I am sure that in 2018 America it's not necessary to force people to provide their services to all race, gender, religion, because discrimination based on those criteria is not generally tolerated.
My profession is a bit different. I take a lot of pride in being the guy who comes when someone calls for help. It doesn't matter who that person is, or what their circumstances are, we come and provide the best help we can. Period. Full stop. I've treated people with swastika tattoos who answered my inquiry about the current President* with "that nigger." I've treated drunks, druggies, postictal, hypoglycemic, and head injury patients who were doing their best to beat my ass while I treated them. All of them got the best treatment I could give.

Of course, that's what I signed up for. I spent several years going to night school and then full-time school to become a firefighter/paramedic. I never had any doubt about the requirement to treat everyone who called for help. In fact, that's exactly what I wanted. And I absolutely would say that anyone in that profession who thinks differently ought to look for another line of work.

A cake baker is a different thing, of course. I'm also generally a free association guy, and my instinct, should someone refuse to do business with me because I'm with a guy, is to say, "well, fuck you then. I'll take my money elsewhere." I may also be inclined to spread the word that business X has an issue with teh gheys, and people who have an issue with people who have an issue with teh gheys should probably go elsewhere.

However......I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea that when that principle is applied everywhere, it can create an environment in which people do face systematic legal discrimination. Not every business in the Jim Crow era refused to serve black people because he law told them to. At the same time, I don't think the roadblocks gay people face are anywhere near as extreme as black people face even today. My personal experience is that it just isn't much of an issue. I've gotten looks before, but that's about it. (To be fair, neither the soon-to-be-ex hubby nor I come across as the sort of guys who are presumed to like guys. I don't think it was always obvious that we were a couple.)

Shorter: I'm conflicted on the baker case. In the case of medical people, cops, firefighters, pharmacists, etc, I have no conflict. The job is to serve all people who come to you. Don't like that? Find something else to do.

*A standard question to establish a person's level of mentation is 'who is the current President.'
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Warren
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 18 Aug 2018, 21:58

Number 6 wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 18:00
mentation
I learned a new word.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Aug 2018, 03:35

Number 6 wrote:
18 Aug 2018, 18:00
In the case of medical people, cops, firefighters, pharmacists, etc, I have no conflict. The job is to serve all people who come to you. Don't like that? Find something else to do.
I have no problem whatsoever with this, given the state power wrapped up in these jobs. (Pharmacists can make decisions based on their own political views the moment they give up a state-granted monopoly on handing out prescription drugs.)

I have no conflict on the baker side, myself. I despise the bakers, but I think they have the right to refuse. Is the decision violating their right to refuse to make a cake the most important thing to worry about with Trump and other issues? No, but they still have that right. And on a damn libertarian message board, I think I should be able to say that without someone going, "Oh, no, but that's illegal, don't you understand?"
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Jake
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jake » 20 Aug 2018, 02:45

Hey, everyone... it appears to me that some of us on this thread are talking about what "is", and others are talking about what "ought" to be. And some of the "is" talkers are perhaps confusing what the "ought" talkers are saying for "is" talk, and likewise, some of the "ought" talkers are perhaps confusing what the "is" talkers are saying for "ought" talk.

(This is not aimed at anyone in particular, it's just a thing I see happening on occasion, and I suspect it might be happening in this thread as well.)
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Oct 2018, 03:20

As usual, non-voters are the real heroes:
Not enough people turned out to vote in the referendum, which asked voters redefine the constitution to specify that marriage could only take place between men and women.

Only 21.08% of voters cast their ballots, according to Romania's national news agency AGERPRES. The referendum required a 30% turnout, or more than five million people casting ballots, to be valid.
The lawmakers also questioned why the Social Democratic Party had taken the unusual step of holding the referendum over two days rather than one. "We are concerned that this could be construed as a deliberate attempt to influence the outcome of referendum, by ensuring the 30% threshold of participation is met," they wrote.
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Ellie
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Ellie » 22 Oct 2018, 13:00

Look, I think the whole possible push for "certain federal agencies must define gender by the sex assigned at birth" is super duper gross, and stupid and useless and I oppose it with every fiber of my being. But can we PLEASE stop saying things like "Trump's going to make a law" (he can't make laws by himself! have you never seen Schoolhouse Rock?) or worse, "it will be illegal to be transgender"?
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nicole
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by nicole » 22 Oct 2018, 13:36

Or that he’s going to “define transgender out of existence”? Yeah. Fucking NYT is such trash now.
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thoreau
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 22 Oct 2018, 14:00

I have friends who are convinced that Trump will do all of those things and more, and trying to cissplain* this would not go over well. They must be allowed to freak out.

Anyway, the best way to get Trump to go easy on transgender people would be for Kanye to invite his step-parent-in-law Caitlyn Jenner to the next Oval Office meeting. After Jenner praised Trump for getting better ratings than her own reality show, Trump would be delighted and give her whatever she wanted.

*They are cis, but I'm quite certain I'd be accused of 'splaining nonetheless.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 22 Oct 2018, 16:26

Ellie wrote:
22 Oct 2018, 13:00
Look, I think the whole possible push for "certain federal agencies must define gender by the sex assigned at birth" is super duper gross, and stupid and useless and I oppose it with every fiber of my being. But can we PLEASE stop saying things like "Trump's going to make a law" (he can't make laws by himself! have you never seen Schoolhouse Rock?)


Trump didn't need a law to take kids away from parents and put them in camps.
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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 22 Oct 2018, 16:31

It definitely won't be "illegal" to be transgender, but if this scheme passes it'll be a hell of a lot harder than it already is. Even now, there's vile shit going on like such as that trans kid left out of a school "shelter in place" drill because the staff couldn't decide which locker room the kid should hide in. (Granted, those drills are bullshit to begin with, but it's extra-bullshit to have one and then tell the trans kid "Yeah, while the 'normal' students hide in these presumably safe locker rooms, you go sit alone in the gym and wait for the shooter to blow off your head.") If someone belongs to a group that already faces a ton of bigoted shit from society, and the President of the United damned States is going out of his way to put a cherry on top of that bigoted-shit sundae, I'll give said person a pass for freaking out a bit.
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Ellie
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Ellie » 22 Oct 2018, 16:42

Eric the .5b wrote:
22 Oct 2018, 16:26
Trump didn't need a law to take kids away from parents and put them in camps.
No, and I'd be just as annoyed at anyone posting that "Trump made a law to separate immigrant kids from their parents!"

I hate this administration, I hate what they're trying to do with this issue, I oppose it, I think it's harmful, but I also want people to describe it correctly, dammit. :lol:
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Mo
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Mo » 22 Oct 2018, 18:15

While he didn’t pass a bill, regulations and exec orders can act in the way most people think of as laws. The make behaviors legal or illegal. Do you get similarly annoyed when people say phrases like, “legislate from the bench”? Technically, judges do no legislation.
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Ellie
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Ellie » 22 Oct 2018, 18:24

Mo wrote:
22 Oct 2018, 18:15
While he didn’t pass a bill, regulations and exec orders can act in the way most people think of as laws. The make behaviors legal or illegal.
I actually didn't know this! In seeking to school, it is I who have become schooled. Thank you!
"NB stands for nota bene do not @ me" - nicole

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