Marriage is Totally Gay

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thoreau
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 27 Feb 2018, 23:00

The state can rename all of those marriages with the stroke of a pen if they wish, but actually ending them would require disentangling all of the joint property and other matters. That would keep an army of lawyers fully employed forever. Even Paul Campos would agree that there would be a totes real lawyer shortage.

If people really want to rename marital status just to keep teh gayz from getting to have it, that is just pathetic. If they want to end legal marriages, they are insane.
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Warren
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 28 Feb 2018, 03:00

pistoffnick wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 22:10
But I think it is the right direction (though Alabama seems to be coming at it from a different angle than I am). The state (if there should be one, I remain skeptical) shouldn't be in the business of telling you who you can or cannot get married to and shouldn't grant special privileges (tax rates, legal protections for spouses, etc.) to married people.

Its not so strange a concept. For millennia, marriage was the domain of churches. The state had very little to do with it.
Undoing those special privileges would take three generations if there was the will to do it in the first place which there isn't.
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fyodor
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by fyodor » 28 Feb 2018, 12:13

thoreau wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 23:00
The state can rename all of those marriages with the stroke of a pen if they wish, but actually ending them would require disentangling all of the joint property and other matters. That would keep an army of lawyers fully employed forever. Even Paul Campos would agree that there would be a totes real lawyer shortage.

If people really want to rename marital status just to keep teh gayz from getting to have it, that is just pathetic. If they want to end legal marriages, they are insane.
I don't want to rename marital status to keep teh gays from getting it, but I wouldn't mind renaming marriage so that those who don't want teh gays to get it would buzz off and chill out and shut the fuck up and let it be, etc. It would also clarify things that the government is in the business of enforcing contracts, not sanctifying romantic unions. Call it primacy union contracts or some such. Then whoever wants to say they're married can say it, and whoever wants to believe it can believe it, but the law won't (claim to) say anything about it one way or the other.

Whether the state should treat people differently based on their having entered into such a contract would actually be a separate matter. It's hard to believe Alabama will really go through with this if there's no replacement template.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 01 Mar 2018, 01:53

fyodor wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 12:13
Whether the state should treat people differently based on their having entered into such a contract would actually be a separate matter.
Separate or not it is the primary matter. The state does treat people differently based on their marital status and it can't, I repeat CAN'T, simply stop doing that.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 01 Mar 2018, 10:12

Warren wrote:
01 Mar 2018, 01:53
fyodor wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 12:13
Whether the state should treat people differently based on their having entered into such a contract would actually be a separate matter.
Separate or not it is the primary matter. The state does treat people differently based on their marital status and it can't, I repeat CAN'T, simply stop doing that.
Politically, this is true. THE FAMILY and MARRIAGE are unquestioned Holies of all sides.
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Kwix
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Kwix » 01 Mar 2018, 17:09

Warren wrote:
01 Mar 2018, 01:53
fyodor wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 12:13
Whether the state should treat people differently based on their having entered into such a contract would actually be a separate matter.
Separate or not it is the primary matter. The state does treat people differently based on their marital status and it can't, I repeat CAN'T, simply stop doing that.
Bullshit. I CAN and SHOULD but will not. The state, if anything, should only be a keeper of record for a nuptial contract drawn up by all participants. That society looks to the state as a shortcut is like the acceptance of fiat money. The only reason it works is because the state says is has value and society chooses to believe it.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 01 Mar 2018, 17:24

Kwix wrote:
01 Mar 2018, 17:09
Warren wrote:
01 Mar 2018, 01:53
fyodor wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 12:13
Whether the state should treat people differently based on their having entered into such a contract would actually be a separate matter.
Separate or not it is the primary matter. The state does treat people differently based on their marital status and it can't, I repeat CAN'T, simply stop doing that.
Bullshit. I CAN and SHOULD but will not. The state, if anything, should only be a keeper of record for a nuptial contract drawn up by all participants. That society looks to the state as a shortcut is like the acceptance of fiat money. The only reason it works is because the state says is has value and society chooses to believe it.
No it goes way farther than that. Our society has integrated marriage deeply into it's structure. Questions of custody, power of attorney, etc. would require being reworked from the ground up before you can do away with state recognized marriage. Individually negotiated nuptial contracts are completely inadequate substitutes.
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thoreau
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 01 Mar 2018, 17:51

Look, if the state said tomorrow "We don't do marriages but we will enforce agreements on joint property, power of attorney, etc." then lawyers and judges would very quickly converge on a set of arrangements and interpretations thereof, and the most common offerings would look remarkably like marriage, with most deviations from the norm looking remarkably similar to what people do with prenups and whatnot today. Law firms and/or courthouses would have standard packages on offer, and in the end we'd get marriage with slightly different labeling and paperwork.

And all because a bunch of people had a visceral reaction to gay marriage and a much smaller number of people had a principled objection to the state explicitly doing marriage.

To the extent that I can still call myself a libertarian, it's because I have an interest in expanding people's freedom of action in meaningful ways, not because I want to put the status quo on different letterhead.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 01 Mar 2018, 18:20

To the extent that I can still call myself a libertarian, it's because I have an interest in expanding people's freedom of action in meaningful ways, not because I want to put the status quo on different letterhead.
Good turn of phrase. I like that.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 18 Mar 2018, 00:38

Well, we just got the invite to our nephew John's wedding. He's marrying a dude named Pedro.

Some of the family is OK with Pedro being a dude but not with him being Dominican. Others are OK with the Dominican part but not the dude part. And still others are not OK with the cost of travel and lodging for a Manhattan wedding.

So, you know, the usual family bullshit.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Mo » 19 Mar 2018, 09:33

thoreau wrote:
18 Mar 2018, 00:38
And still others are not OK with the cost of travel and lodging for a Manhattan wedding.
This is the most acceptable reason to be annoyed.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Warren » 19 Mar 2018, 09:55

Mo wrote:
19 Mar 2018, 09:33
thoreau wrote:
18 Mar 2018, 00:38
And still others are not OK with the cost of travel and lodging for a Manhattan wedding.
This is the most acceptable reason to be annoyed.
Agree. I wouldn't judge you for grudging the expense. In any case, if you're not OK with the union for any reason, please don't come.
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thoreau
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by thoreau » 19 Mar 2018, 11:28

Further updates: Some are annoyed over decades-old disputes with the father of one of the grooms, and will take it out on the nephew.

So, family politics as usual.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Aresen » 19 Mar 2018, 11:52

thoreau wrote:
19 Mar 2018, 11:28
Further updates: Some are annoyed over decades-old disputes with the father of one of the grooms, and will take it out on the nephew.

So, family politics as usual.
This sort of shit is why I never bought into the whole 'extended family' bullshit. The sociologist types who deplored the 'nuclear family' and bemoaned the breakdown of the 'extended family' simply repressed the memories of all the bad blood and other shit that happened.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Ellie » 12 Aug 2018, 23:34

Internet confession: tonight I was reading stuff about transphobia and getting really depressed, and then the thought popped into my head: "TERFs can suck a dick. A lady's dick" and it amused me way, way, way, way too much :lol: :oops:
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Aug 2018, 20:19

Ellie wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 23:34
Internet confession: tonight I was reading stuff about transphobia and getting really depressed, and then the thought popped into my head: "TERFs can suck a dick. A lady's dick" and it amused me way, way, way, way too much :lol: :oops:
Ha!

But who knows where those TERFs' mouths have been?
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by nicole » 15 Aug 2018, 13:19

On June 26, 2017, the same day that the Supreme Court agreed to take up Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, an attorney asked Phillips to create a cake designed pink on the inside and blue on the outside, which the attorney said was to celebrate a gender transition from male to female. Phillips declined the request because the custom cake would have expressed messages about sex and gender identity that conflict with his religious beliefs. Less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled for Phillips in his first case, the state surprised him by finding probable cause to believe that Colorado law requires him to create the requested gender-transition cake.
http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10601
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 15 Aug 2018, 13:30

nicole wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:19
On June 26, 2017, the same day that the Supreme Court agreed to take up Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, an attorney asked Phillips to create a cake designed pink on the inside and blue on the outside, which the attorney said was to celebrate a gender transition from male to female. Phillips declined the request because the custom cake would have expressed messages about sex and gender identity that conflict with his religious beliefs. Less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled for Phillips in his first case, the state surprised him by finding probable cause to believe that Colorado law requires him to create the requested gender-transition cake.
http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10601
I'd bet close to everything I have that had this guy been asked to make the same cake only with a different explanation -- say, Ellie wanted a pink-and-blue cake to celebrate the birth of her different-sex twins -- he'd be fine with it.

I seem to recall one of the anti-gay bakers taking umbrage at a cake made for "David and Charlie" -- yet that exact same cake wouldn't have caused him problems had he been told "Charlie" was a woman's nickname, short for Charlotte or Charlene.

EDIT: Typos.
Last edited by Jennifer on 15 Aug 2018, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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nicole
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by nicole » 15 Aug 2018, 13:34

Jennifer wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:30
nicole wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:19
On June 26, 2017, the same day that the Supreme Court agreed to take up Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, an attorney asked Phillips to create a cake designed pink on the inside and blue on the outside, which the attorney said was to celebrate a gender transition from male to female. Phillips declined the request because the custom cake would have expressed messages about sex and gender identity that conflict with his religious beliefs. Less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled for Phillips in his first case, the state surprised him by finding probable cause to believe that Colorado law requires him to create the requested gender-transition cake.
http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10601
I'd bet close to everything I have that had this guy been asked to make the same cake only with a different explanation -- say, Ellie wanted a pink-ad-blue cake to celebrate the birth of her different-sex twins -- he'd be fine with it.

I seem to recall one of the anti-gay bakes taking umbrage at a cake made for "David and Charlie" -- yet that exact same cake wouldn't have caused him problems had he been told "Charlie" was a woman's nickname, short for Charlotte or Charlene.
Well, presumably that's because he doesn't have a religious objection to girl+boy twins.
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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 15 Aug 2018, 13:44

nicole wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:34
Jennifer wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:30
nicole wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 13:19
On June 26, 2017, the same day that the Supreme Court agreed to take up Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, an attorney asked Phillips to create a cake designed pink on the inside and blue on the outside, which the attorney said was to celebrate a gender transition from male to female. Phillips declined the request because the custom cake would have expressed messages about sex and gender identity that conflict with his religious beliefs. Less than a month after the Supreme Court ruled for Phillips in his first case, the state surprised him by finding probable cause to believe that Colorado law requires him to create the requested gender-transition cake.
http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/10601
I'd bet close to everything I have that had this guy been asked to make the same cake only with a different explanation -- say, Ellie wanted a pink-ad-blue cake to celebrate the birth of her different-sex twins -- he'd be fine with it.

I seem to recall one of the anti-gay bakes taking umbrage at a cake made for "David and Charlie" -- yet that exact same cake wouldn't have caused him problems had he been told "Charlie" was a woman's nickname, short for Charlotte or Charlene.
Well, presumably that's because he doesn't have a religious objection to girl+boy twins.
And there are pharmacists who have no objections to handing a birth control pill over to a married woman, but not an unmarried one. In both cases the action is not what they are opposed to (making a cake, selling some pills); it's only what they know about the intended recipients that inspires their bigotry. Similar to how in Jim Crow days there were restaurateurs who had no problem cooking food for white customers, but took umbrage at producing identical meals for black customers.
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jasper » 15 Aug 2018, 16:11

In the case that Jack won before the Supreme Court, the state admitted that cake artists—including Jack—are free to decline to create custom cakes with a “specific design” that they will not make for anyone.
Freedom of contract is just like Jim Crow.

Got it.
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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 15 Aug 2018, 16:23

Jasper wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:11
In the case that Jack won before the Supreme Court, the state admitted that cake artists—including Jack—are free to decline to create custom cakes with a “specific design” that they will not make for anyone.
Freedom of contract is just like Jim Crow.
Not what I claimed, but you likely know that already.
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Andrew
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Andrew » 15 Aug 2018, 16:25

It sure is a shame there's only one cake baker in Colorado and everyone has to buy cakes from him or starve.
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Jennifer
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jennifer » 15 Aug 2018, 16:28

Andrew wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:25
It sure is a shame there's only one cake baker in Colorado and everyone has to buy cakes from him or starve.
Precedents matter in American law: if businesses in populated areas can cite religion as an excuse to discriminate against their fellow Americans, businesses in Sticksville can as well.
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Jasper
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Re: Marriage is Totally Gay

Post by Jasper » 15 Aug 2018, 16:32

Jennifer wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:23
Jasper wrote:
15 Aug 2018, 16:11
In the case that Jack won before the Supreme Court, the state admitted that cake artists—including Jack—are free to decline to create custom cakes with a “specific design” that they will not make for anyone.
Freedom of contract is just like Jim Crow.
Not what I claimed, but you likely know that already.
Then why bring it up?
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