The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

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Warren
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Warren » 16 Mar 2019, 20:56

Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Abstract hypothetical victims are what lead to punishing people for phantom menaces like resisting arrest, obstruction of justice, possession with intent, and treason.
Intent is a phantom crime as it exists only in the mind of the criminal. All the rest are real crimes of actual bad acts.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Mar 2019, 21:14

Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Abstract hypothetical victims are what lead to punishing people for phantom menaces like resisting arrest, obstruction of justice, possession with intent, and treason.
Intent is a phantom crime as it exists only in the mind of the criminal. All the rest are real crimes of actual bad acts.
Assuming for the moment that resisting arrest and obstruction of justice aren't just pulled out of thin air to add years to sentences or weight to a plea deal or to pinch someone when you can't make a case for a real crime, who exactly is harmed by them?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Warren » 16 Mar 2019, 22:55

Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
Perhaps we can agree that prison is a failed experiment and should be reserved only for dangerous and violent offenders.
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Assuming for the moment that resisting arrest and obstruction of justice aren't just pulled out of thin air to add years to sentences or weight to a plea deal or to pinch someone when you can't make a case for a real crime, who exactly is harmed by them?
Tax payers, agents of the state, citizens.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Aresen » 16 Mar 2019, 23:02

Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Abstract hypothetical victims are what lead to punishing people for phantom menaces like resisting arrest, obstruction of justice, possession with intent, and treason.
Intent is a phantom crime as it exists only in the mind of the criminal. All the rest are real crimes of actual bad acts.
Assuming for the moment that resisting arrest and obstruction of justice aren't just pulled out of thin air to add years to sentences or weight to a plea deal or to pinch someone when you can't make a case for a real crime, who exactly is harmed by them?
If there are reasonable grounds for suspecting someone committed a crime - holding stolen goods, for example - then I can see a charge of resisting arrest on an uncooperative though innocent person. I can also see 'obstruction of justice' when someone willfully blocks an officer in hot pursuit. In general, however, they are bullshit charges intended to 'pile on' the suspect.

'Treason' is iffy. Where's the line between Snowden and Ames?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Pham Nuwen » 17 Mar 2019, 00:36

I skipped ahead on Hugh's comment so sorry if this was already clarified but .... you think it's a tiny percentage of people that like hurting other people?
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Mar 2019, 03:58

Pham Nuwen wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 00:36
I skipped ahead on Hugh's comment so sorry if this was already clarified but .... you think it's a tiny percentage of people that like hurting other people?
That's what I said.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Mar 2019, 04:07

Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 22:55
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Assuming for the moment that resisting arrest and obstruction of justice aren't just pulled out of thin air to add years to sentences or weight to a plea deal or to pinch someone when you can't make a case for a real crime, who exactly is harmed by them?
Tax payers, agents of the state, citizens.
So again, abstract victims harmed in a convoluted and indirect way.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Mar 2019, 04:11

Aresen wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:02
I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
People already have copious access to those services at reduced cost if they can't afford them, often already subsidized by the state. If they prefer uneducated career criminals to productive rehabilitated citizens, then let them be aggrieved.
'Treason' is iffy. Where's the line between Snowden and Ames?
Depends, how many people did each of them kill?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Aresen » 17 Mar 2019, 11:36

Hugh Akston wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 04:11
Aresen wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:02
I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
People already have copious access to those services at reduced cost if they can't afford them, often already subsidized by the state. If they prefer uneducated career criminals to productive rehabilitated citizens, then let them be aggrieved.
'Let them be aggrieved', i.e. dismissing their feelings is not going to change the fact that they have those feelings. And can vote. I am pointing out a political issue, not making a moral case.
'Treason' is iffy. Where's the line between Snowden and Ames?
Depends, how many people did each of them kill?
Ames definitely caused the deaths of several US agents. Some people (not me) argue that Snowden betrayed information needed to save lives. My question stands - how do you draw the line?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Mar 2019, 14:32

Aresen wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 11:36
Hugh Akston wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 04:11
Treason' is iffy. Where's the line between Snowden and Ames?
Depends, how many people did each of them kill?
Ames definitely caused the deaths of several US agents. Some people (not me) argue that Snowden betrayed information needed to save lives. My question stands - how do you draw the line?
It's a pretty simple demarcation. On one side of it is people who have personally inflicted physical or material harm to specific people, and on the other side is people who haven't. From what I know, Ames and Snowden are both on the same side.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Dangerman » 17 Mar 2019, 14:49

What do we do with people who have harmed others because of greed? Is that economic desperation or mental illness?

As for your simple demarcation, how do you feel about a friend who, seeing a man trying to break into your house, gives that criminal the key that you have entrusted your friend with? Is that friend responsible in any way for the burglary/rape/murder that then occurs?

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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 18 Mar 2019, 16:04

Aresen wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:02
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
There are plenty of aggrieved people who want Arpaio-esque or worse treatment of people who've been convicted or even merely accused of committing a crime.

You already have to feed them and take care of them; what's the non-stupid reason to not try to reduce their chances of coming back?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Aresen » 18 Mar 2019, 18:40

Eric the .5b wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 16:04
Aresen wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:02
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
There are plenty of aggrieved people who want Arpaio-esque or worse treatment of people who've been convicted or even merely accused of committing a crime.

You already have to feed them and take care of them; what's the non-stupid reason to not try to reduce their chances of coming back?
Replying to Hugh above, I wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 11:36
'Let them be aggrieved', i.e. dismissing their feelings is not going to change the fact that they have those feelings. And can vote. I am pointing out a political issue, not making a moral case.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 18 Mar 2019, 20:02

Aresen wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 18:40
Eric the .5b wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 16:04
Aresen wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 23:02
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 21:14
Warren wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
16 Mar 2019, 20:40
Prisons already provide food, shelter, and clothing to prisoners, all of which law-abiding citizens are expected to provide for themselves. And if the end product of incarceration is a person who makes the world better by being productive rather than an unemployable wreck who falls right back into crime, I think it's worth the cost of some welding classes or generic mood stabilizers. Especially with all the money being saved by not locking up people for victimless crimes in the first place.
Moral hazard.
If we do mange to put together a more humane and rehabilitative penal system that is inundated by a flood of people committing crimes so they can learn Java or talk to a therapist on the taxpayer's dime, I will gladly admit being wrong. But even if that did obtain, I would still take it over the brutal rape cages we currently enjoy. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
I can see people who cannot afford to get the education or therapist on their own dime strenuously objecting to giving the same gratis to people who have committed a crime. Not that they would commit crimes to get said benefits, just that they would be aggrieved.
There are plenty of aggrieved people who want Arpaio-esque or worse treatment of people who've been convicted or even merely accused of committing a crime.

You already have to feed them and take care of them; what's the non-stupid reason to not try to reduce their chances of coming back?
Replying to Hugh above, I wrote:
17 Mar 2019, 11:36
'Let them be aggrieved', i.e. dismissing their feelings is not going to change the fact that they have those feelings. And can vote. I am pointing out a political issue, not making a moral case.
Which puts us right back in the same situation as 99.999% of political stances people here have.

And by that I mean, "So sucking what?" What about this issue means we have to shake our heads and bow to the terrible stances of the majority, as opposed to mocking or deploring them?

I mean, there's not even a trade-off here, no good to trade for perfect. We have no influence or power, and neither is there even a meaningful push toward reform, right now. So why the fuck the is-clucking when someone drops an ought opinion?
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Aresen » 18 Mar 2019, 21:39

Call it an argument from despair. I was merely pointing out that it ain't gonna happen. Do I have a solution? No. Retraining convicts is probably a good idea, but it's not just the Arpaio fans who will argue against it - you will also have a fight with every trades group that has managed to get the state to institute a licensing board.

It's like arguing for free trade - we can point out the benefits all we like. We can also point out that zero tariffs are good even when the other countries have sky-high tariffs. When Trump imposed tariffs on steel and aluminum last year, I tried arguing that Canada should not retaliate. The only response was 'We can't do nothing.'
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Mar 2019, 02:32

Aresen wrote:
18 Mar 2019, 21:39
Call it an argument from despair. I was merely pointing out that it ain't gonna happen.
Again, true of most of the fucking strances people here have.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Hugh Akston » 13 Apr 2019, 01:11

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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Apr 2019, 03:18

Yeah, Halden Prison seems very interesting.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Warren » 13 Apr 2019, 10:51

That's great. I'm on board with it, but here in the USofA it's outside the overton window, got on a plane and flew to Canada.
I'd settle for simply running the prison humanly, such that prisoners don't live in constant fear of abuse from guards and fellow prisoners.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Jake » 13 Apr 2019, 15:28

Warren wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 10:51
That's great. I'm on board with it, but here in the USofA it's outside the overton window, got on a plane and flew to Canada.
I'd settle for simply running the prison humanly, such that prisoners don't live in constant fear of abuse from guards and fellow prisoners.
A group of Oregon state legislators went to visit Halden about a year ago, and they came back impressed and saying good things about it. I'm arranging pieces to get the League of Oregon Cities to line up behind the idea as well, and I'm not getting the pushback I'd expected. I think that, at least here in Oregon, the idea is now pretty firmly inside the Overton window.

Not that we're going to jump straight from our shitty, counterproductive system to a Halden-style one, but most of the folks in power seem to want to be *less* like what we have now and *more* like Halden. Which isn't nothing.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Ellie » 13 Apr 2019, 15:36

I didn't watch the video because I'm old and cranky and hate videos on the internet, but I'm reminded of how The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo begins with the main guy character going to prison and taking his laptop with him so he can write a book while he's in there. I was boggled at how different Scandinavian prisons must be from American ones.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Ellie » 13 Apr 2019, 15:40

Not that my opinions on prisons should be considered by anyone, ever. :lol: I saw that Reason story about the prisoner who was allergic to his blanket but they wouldn't give him a new one, and I was like "Fuck it! The system is terrible! Let everyone out on the street, no matter their crime!" Then I heard a news story about a father setting a fire and killing two of his kids and I was like "Fuck it! Death penalty for that guy! Right now! Bring back public hangings!"
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Warren » 13 Apr 2019, 16:13

Jake wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:28
Warren wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 10:51
That's great. I'm on board with it, but here in the USofA it's outside the overton window, got on a plane and flew to Canada.
I'd settle for simply running the prison humanly, such that prisoners don't live in constant fear of abuse from guards and fellow prisoners.
A group of Oregon state legislators went to visit Halden about a year ago, and they came back impressed and saying good things about it. I'm arranging pieces to get the League of Oregon Cities to line up behind the idea as well, and I'm not getting the pushback I'd expected. I think that, at least here in Oregon, the idea is now pretty firmly inside the Overton window.

Not that we're going to jump straight from our shitty, counterproductive system to a Halden-style one, but most of the folks in power seem to want to be *less* like what we have now and *more* like Halden. Which isn't nothing.
Wake me when it's been reported on and the voters start weighing in.
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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 13 Apr 2019, 20:23

Everything's relative.


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Re: The Sheriff Joe Arpaio Memorial Prison Reform Thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Apr 2019, 23:20

Ellie wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 15:36
I didn't watch the video because I'm old and cranky and hate videos on the internet, but I'm reminded of how The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo begins with the main guy character going to prison and taking his laptop with him so he can write a book while he's in there. I was boggled at how different Scandinavian prisons must be from American ones.
Have an NYT article on it I read a little while back.
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