Private Money!

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Dangerman
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Dangerman » 12 Jan 2018, 16:15

Warren wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 15:57
Dangerman wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 15:51
What do you think the negative consequences will be?
Same as every prohibition. Total failure to achieve the intended consequences, while driving people into a black market and it's associated unintended consequences.
Crypto will be a jillion times worse than drugs, because most people buy into "drugs are bad" but in the coming years no one will respect crypto prohibition.
I thought the intended consequence was to keep BTC from intermingling with parts of the economy that the State wants to tax. I think a ban would achieve that. BTC users won't be driven into the black market, they are already there. They just can't use their BTC instead of Korean cash for legit purposes.

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Mo
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Mo » 12 Jan 2018, 16:34

Also, because the most common transactional use of crypto in the minds of the masses is ransomware, so it's pretty trivial to get buy in from the demos.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Shem » 13 Jan 2018, 00:16

Warren wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 10:41
Dangerman wrote:
12 Jan 2018, 10:37
Friendly Korea just banned BTC.
Let's see how that works out for them.
Well, considering they did it to cut off a funding and resupply vector for the North Koreans, I'd imagine they're pretty clear-eyed about what this will and won't help. I mean, having an easy way to move money to fund espionage and sabotage into their country is bound to make them nervous. Making it impossible to use that money legitimately will help with that.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Dangerman » 13 Jan 2018, 13:54

I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions, and that it's purpose built to be outside the law. I don't think it changes anything. I do want to see some analysis of the ban, because how they do it matters. I don't think holding cryptoBux can be practically banned, but you can probably keep legitimate institutions from using cryptoBux on scale until there's a buy-in to blockchain from finance that can be regulated.

ETA: Except that it changes the South Korea /Best Korea dynamic like Shem said. "" "" Rogue Nations""" are an interesting edge case. Maybe we see some responses like this aimed at Syria, Iran, Or Russia trying to keep funds away from Ukrainian nationalist forces.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 14:01

Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 13:54
I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions...
No it isn't. It's super easy to spend crypto, legit or otherwise. Unless you're saying it's hard to find legit vendors that accept crypto. Which is still the case, but won't be in five more years.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Jadagul » 13 Jan 2018, 16:35

Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 14:01
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 13:54
I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions...
No it isn't. It's super easy to spend crypto, legit or otherwise. Unless you're saying it's hard to find legit vendors that accept crypto. Which is still the case, but won't be in five more years.
If governments make it illegal to accept cryptocurrency, it will be difficult to find legitimate vendors in those countries that accept cryptocurrency.

If governments make it illegal to run cryptocurrency exchanges, it will be somewhat difficult to exchange your cryptocurrency for government currency on cryptocurrency exchanges. (Don't think about how easy it is to regulate cryptocurrency; think about how easy it is to regulate banks).

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Dangerman » 13 Jan 2018, 16:52

Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 14:01
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 13:54
I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions...
No it isn't. It's super easy to spend crypto, legit or otherwise. Unless you're saying it's hard to find legit vendors that accept crypto. Which is still the case, but won't be in five more years.
Let's say that I want to pay a friend $20 via BTC, and neither of us has any, just FRN. Please describe the process.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 17:53

Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 16:52
Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 14:01
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 13:54
I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions...
No it isn't. It's super easy to spend crypto, legit or otherwise. Unless you're saying it's hard to find legit vendors that accept crypto. Which is still the case, but won't be in five more years.
Let's say that I want to pay a friend $20 via BTC, and neither of us has any, just FRN. Please describe the process.
Let's say that I want to pay a friend $20 via USD and neither of us has any...
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Dangerman
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Dangerman » 13 Jan 2018, 18:38

The equivalent would be having BTC and no dollars. Don't be obtuse. Given that I have $20 FRN...

Ninja Edit: Actually, your remark reveals another weakness: how do I get a BTC if I have no currency to trade for it.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Jan 2018, 18:56

Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 18:38
The equivalent would be having BTC and no dollars. Don't be obtuse. Given that I have $20 FRN...

Ninja Edit: Actually, your remark reveals another weakness: how do I get a BTC if I have no currency to trade for it.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Jan 2018, 19:02

Jadagul wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 16:35
Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 14:01
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 13:54
I mean a ban just reinforces the de facto situation that it's a pain in the ass to spend cryptoBux on legit transactions...
No it isn't. It's super easy to spend crypto, legit or otherwise. Unless you're saying it's hard to find legit vendors that accept crypto. Which is still the case, but won't be in five more years.
If governments make it illegal to accept cryptocurrency, it will be difficult to find legitimate vendors in those countries that accept cryptocurrency.

If governments make it illegal to run cryptocurrency exchanges, it will be somewhat difficult to exchange your cryptocurrency for government currency on cryptocurrency exchanges. (Don't think about how easy it is to regulate cryptocurrency; think about how easy it is to regulate banks).
My friend Alex is having fun with something called Steem, which is an absurd combo of cryptocurrency, recommending system, and content platform. I think he did a piece on extracting some of his funny-money income, and the hoops he went through to actually buy material goods with it. And that's when the stuff is actually legal.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 19:16

Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 18:38
The equivalent would be having BTC and no dollars. Don't be obtuse. Given that I have $20 FRN...

Ninja Edit: Actually, your remark reveals another weakness: how do I get a BTC if I have no currency to trade for it.
I'm not.. Oh my god.
Eric the .5b wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 19:02
My friend Alex is having fun with something called Steem, which is an absurd combo of cryptocurrency, recommending system, and content platform. I think he did a piece on extracting some of his funny-money income, and the hoops he went through to actually buy material goods with it. And that's when the stuff is actually legal.
I can't even


Look at it this way folks.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Dangerman » 13 Jan 2018, 21:05

No, Warren, you said it was "super easy to spend crypto". Now please explain how I take my existing $20 FRN and transfer its value to my buddy over here via BTC. Or, if it's easier, tell me how to aquire the equivalent value in BTC without trading US FRN, and transfer it to him. Your choice.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 21:37

Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 21:05
No, Warren, you said it was "super easy to spend crypto". Now please explain how I take my existing $20 FRN and transfer its value to my buddy over here via BTC. Or, if it's easier, tell me how to aquire the equivalent value in BTC without trading US FRN, and transfer it to him. Your choice.
You're being disingenuous with your silly request. The on-ramp to crypto involves a few steps including scanning your ID and linking your bank account. OH NOES! You want it to sound like it's some horrible thing. But it's actually very straight forward and simpler than the on-ramp to the fiat banking/payment system. And once you have a wallet and and exchange account, it's more liquid and easier than dealing with fiat. Which is what I said and NOT AT ALL what you asked.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Shem » 13 Jan 2018, 23:07

Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 21:37
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 21:05
No, Warren, you said it was "super easy to spend crypto". Now please explain how I take my existing $20 FRN and transfer its value to my buddy over here via BTC. Or, if it's easier, tell me how to aquire the equivalent value in BTC without trading US FRN, and transfer it to him. Your choice.
You're being disingenuous with your silly request. The on-ramp to crypto involves a few steps including scanning your ID and linking your bank account. OH NOES! You want it to sound like it's some horrible thing. But it's actually very straight forward and simpler than the on-ramp to the fiat banking/payment system. And once you have a wallet and and exchange account, it's more liquid and easier than dealing with fiat. Which is what I said and NOT AT ALL what you asked.
Warren, I spent at least 3 hours trying to get someone, anyone, to sell me some BTC in order to settle our bet.
Nobody
was willing to take my USD in exchange for Bitcoin. I scanned and sent my ID and information at least 4 times, and each time I wound up with an empty account and a message of "sorry, we can't work with you because of where you're located." By the end, my options were pretty much "start mining" or "buy dogecoin or a crypto that will take cash, then trade it on the exchange for btc." I appealed to you for assistance, and if you'll remember, you eventually just sent me your PayPal, because we couldn't make it work. Meaning, you and I both know that the barriers to converting resources to crypto and sending them are nowhere near as low as you're representing them now.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 23:12

Shem wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 23:07
Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 21:37
Dangerman wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 21:05
No, Warren, you said it was "super easy to spend crypto". Now please explain how I take my existing $20 FRN and transfer its value to my buddy over here via BTC. Or, if it's easier, tell me how to aquire the equivalent value in BTC without trading US FRN, and transfer it to him. Your choice.
You're being disingenuous with your silly request. The on-ramp to crypto involves a few steps including scanning your ID and linking your bank account. OH NOES! You want it to sound like it's some horrible thing. But it's actually very straight forward and simpler than the on-ramp to the fiat banking/payment system. And once you have a wallet and and exchange account, it's more liquid and easier than dealing with fiat. Which is what I said and NOT AT ALL what you asked.
Warren, I spent at least 3 hours trying to get someone, anyone, to sell me some BTC in order to settle our bet.
Nobody
was willing to take my USD in exchange for Bitcoin. I scanned and sent my ID and information at least 4 times, and each time I wound up with an empty account and a message of "sorry, we can't work with you because of where you're located." By the end, my options were pretty much "start mining" or "buy dogecoin or a crypto that will take cash, then trade it on the exchange for btc." I appealed to you for assistance, and if you'll remember, you eventually just sent me your PayPal, because we couldn't make it work. Meaning, you and I both know that the barriers to converting resources to crypto and sending them are nowhere near as low as you're representing them now.
Where are you located? As far as I know Coinbase will take any US customer.
Gemini is another fiat on-ramp that works with US customers, but they have a huge backlog of applications. Mine has been waiting approval for two weeks.

Crypto is no longer the wild west of when we made the bet. Coinbase and Gemini are regulated financial institutions.
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Shem
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Shem » 13 Jan 2018, 23:18

The wild wild west of 18 months ago?
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 13 Jan 2018, 23:54

Shem wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 23:18
The wild wild west of 18 months ago?
No, six years ago.
18 months ago, things were changing rapidly. The Feds were moving against foreign exchanges and cracking down on domestic exchanges. To keep servicing US customers required a commitment to regulatory compliance, made more challenging by not having any established regulations. It has settled down now. But nearly all the players from that time have been forced out, for the US anyway.
You're basically forced to use Coinbase as your fiat on-ramp, but getting an account verified is not difficult. And once you have BTCs there are several crypto only exchanges.

It's a new thing, but it's only going to become more and more commonplace.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Mo » 13 Jan 2018, 23:56

Didn't you just prove Jadagul's point? It was a ludicrous pain in the ass when the government just looked at bitcoin side eyed. It would be 100x worse if it was actively illegal. It would be 1000x worse if they treated BTC the way they treat OFAC stuff.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Ellie » 14 Jan 2018, 00:08

I was trying to buy Bitcoin and couldn't get my account verified through Coinbase. It was an endless "this is taking longer than usual, check back later" loop that never resolved.
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 14 Jan 2018, 00:18

Ellie wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 00:08
I was trying to buy Bitcoin and couldn't get my account verified through Coinbase. It was an endless "this is taking longer than usual, check back later" loop that never resolved.
I see. I think DAR got his Coinbase acct. just recently. It makes sense though. Everyone is funneled into just a couple of sites and new applications are piling up. Because more people are getting into crypto.
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Mo
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Mo » 14 Jan 2018, 00:24

They're not getting into crypto, they're getting into online gambling using crypto. Are there stats in non-speculation related transactions?
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Shem
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Re: Private Money!

Post by Shem » 14 Jan 2018, 00:36

Warren wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 23:54
Shem wrote:
13 Jan 2018, 23:18
The wild wild west of 18 months ago?
No, six years ago.
18 months ago, things were changing rapidly. The Feds were moving against foreign exchanges and cracking down on domestic exchanges. To keep servicing US customers required a commitment to regulatory compliance, made more challenging by not having any established regulations. It has settled down now. But nearly all the players from that time have been forced out, for the US anyway.
You're basically forced to use Coinbase as your fiat on-ramp, but getting an account verified is not difficult. And once you have BTCs there are several crypto only exchanges.

It's a new thing, but it's only going to become more and more commonplace.
The events I'm talking about were 18 months ago. That was when the bet ended. Coinbase was one of the sites you sent me to.
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Re: Private Money!

Post by JasonL » 14 Jan 2018, 01:04

My intuition is that the tension between the low number of transactions for goods executed in bitcoins vs the valuation of bitcoin will resolve by way of decreased valuation not increased transactions. But that’s just intuition.

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Re: Private Money!

Post by Warren » 14 Jan 2018, 01:54

Shem wrote:
14 Jan 2018, 00:36
Coinbase was one of the sites you sent me to.
Huh. That's odd. They weren't backed up 18 mo ago. I wonder if it's a tax or regulation local to WA.
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