When journalism goes bad

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thoreau
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 18 Aug 2019, 21:37

I do think there's room to question whether America overall would actually be a richer country today if people had pursued a path that didn't involve slavery. Free workers are more productive and innovative. A lot of the things done to sharecroppers stunted agricultural innovation and economic development in the southern US. And De Tocqueville noticed that many white people in slave states regarded labor as beneath them, while white people in adjacent free states would work hard to farm on similar soil, because they saw working as a path to advancement. It probably set back the development of middle class values among both blacks and whites in the south, albeit for very different reasons.

But this is not incompatible with noting that plenty of people got quite wealthy off of slavery. However much wealthier a freer America could have been, the America that we have made heavy use of slave labor.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 19 Aug 2019, 00:41

If we learned nothing else from the first scene of 2001: A Space Odyssey, it's that all land was stolen from someone else at one point or another and that it's almost certainly the fault of space aliens.

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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 05:49

Jadagul wrote:
Mo wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 18:34
I will admit that I haven’t read anything from the NYT 1619 Project, but I am interested. The weird thing is how many people whose job it is to read and critique these sorts of things have the vapors about it and haven’t read a single word of it. Like criticism of it would be understandable if you were able to point out where the history was wrong or where the conclusions go to far. But if you’re going with, “ It hurts my feelings,” I’m not taking you seriously.
Yglesias has been making that point on twitter. There are some definite critiques of the school of economic history that is most represented in this project--and I'm really skeptical that capitalism can't exist without a foundation of slavery, which is the strong form of the view. But that's not the sort of narrow critique that a lot of people are making.

Agree, though based on some of the reading, it appears to state not that capitalism qua capitalism wouldn’t exist without slavery, but that American capitalism as practiced is influenced by the legacy of slavery, which I suppose is the weak form of the view. But I am loath to take a side without doing the reading.

The best counters to the people critiquing it really comes from black journos who are basically saying, “Yo, the people who actually lived Jim Crow and slavery were patriotic Americans who pushed America to be better, so pointing out this history doesn’t delegitimize America any more than actually doing it. “
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 07:13

I think one critique is how much of an effect did Somersett's case have on the Founders' desire to declare independence. The geography of Loyalists (heavy in the South, weaker as one went north) indicates that this was not the prime mover. But the argument that the civil rights fights with black people as the vanguard, did lead to civil rights for other Americans (women and immigrants) as a result.

The article on capitalism, is actually quite interesting. I would be curious of a serious historical critique of it because some of it is quite fascinating. It states that depreciation as an accounting concept came from slaveholders' accounting, which is much earlier than the early 20th century where it spread to other industries. It also tracks back a number of management techniques and philosophies back to the same era rather than to the later railroad era where it is commonly attributed to. Now to me, that reads that slavery acted as a catalyst to the growth of modern capitalism and techniques, but does not tar the entire enterprise. I disagree with the conclusions of the author regarding how much it stains the idea of capitalism, but as a work of economic history, it was very interesting
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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 19 Aug 2019, 08:18

The economic theory is super low rent. It doesn't survive cross cultural comparisons and it isolates without apparent justification one kind of slavery in one nation without examining that every modern nation has roots in slavery so you could make the same argument about any kind of economic system anywhere. Also, how to put this, the stated goal of the project is to put slavery at the center of american history, which is fine as a way to tell stories and reveal truths about slavery, but it is not necessarily revelaory of truths about the totality of america and capitalism and such larger issues. That is an assertion made at the beginning of the project - that slavery belongs at the center of every story. That almost can't be the most accurate way to view things with lots of inputs even if it is a corrective to some other story.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by dhex » 19 Aug 2019, 08:29

The series seems good so far but I also agree with the overall thrust of the centrality of slavery in shaping modern America.

The preserve our history via racist statue people on Twitter are inadvertently proving the necessity of the project. Presuming it's not just posturing and slash or Twitter.
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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 19 Aug 2019, 08:40

My only real complaint is that it furthers the ongoing "my mono lens is true while your mono lens is false" thing. If I were to start a club it would be the "more than one thing can be true at the same time" club and I would be bowling alone.

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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 09:47

I mean prior to 1865, slavery was pretty central to everything in the US because of the outsized impact it had on the economy and politics of the time. Over 40% of output in the mid 19th century was agriculture, of which slavery was the primary engine. Throw in industry and services that support that and ag and ag-related is a majority of economic output. On the political and legal side, it also had a huge impact, from westward, wars with other countries and subsequent political decisions. Not to mention the effect it had on the Constitution and other American legal foundations. In 2238, when KSA has diversified their economy away from oil into construction materials and exporting solar energy loaded fuel cells, it wouldn't be ridiculous to for the Riyadh Times Magazine to write a series called the 1938 Project about how everything in Saudi Arabia is sticky with the legacy of oil.

And FFS, people are saying, "Hey history of slavery is good, but why are you looking at it through a racial lens."

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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 19 Aug 2019, 10:52

Agreed. But also everyone had slaves for a long time like all of human history so it’s hard to argue it’s a unique secret sauce.

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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 12:00

JasonL wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 10:52
Agreed. But also everyone had slaves for a long time like all of human history so it’s hard to argue it’s a unique secret sauce.
But the scale was unique for modern industrializing countries. I would be curious how much schools here talk about the legacy of colonialism as it would hold a similar place. Or if it's treated the way that we treat it, "It happened, it was bad, we don't do that anymore."
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Warren
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 19 Aug 2019, 12:01

Who was I listening to that pointed out that slavery was more wide spread and lasted longer in South America yet for some reason they didn't become economic powerhouses.
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 12:04

Only Puerto Rico, Cuba and Brazil abolished slavery after the Emancipation Proclamation in the Americas.
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Warren
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 19 Aug 2019, 12:08

Mo wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 12:04
Only Puerto Rico, Cuba and Brazil abolished slavery after the Emancipation Proclamation in the Americas.
Well there you go. Three thriving capitalist economies, coasting off the legacy of slavery.
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Painboy
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Painboy » 19 Aug 2019, 12:12

I would also point out that the heyday of American capitalism was after slavery had been abolished. If anything it was holding things back.

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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 19 Aug 2019, 12:33


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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 19 Aug 2019, 12:49

Warren wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 12:08
Mo wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 12:04
Only Puerto Rico, Cuba and Brazil abolished slavery after the Emancipation Proclamation in the Americas.
Well there you go. Three thriving capitalist economies, coasting off the legacy of slavery.
There are other parts of South America besides Brazil. Even in Risk you need 3 other countries before you get the continent bonus.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by dhex » 20 Aug 2019, 08:00

Confederate flag Twitter read the back jacket of a book about slavery once. Good for them.
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thoreau
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 20 Aug 2019, 10:20

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 20 Aug 2019, 15:25

This is a good conservative take on the project. How slavery doomed limited government.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... in-america
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Jennifer
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 21 Aug 2019, 17:11

thoreau wrote:
20 Aug 2019, 10:20
“Removing monuments honoring Confederate leaders is erasing our history!”

Well, as a history buff you’ll want to read this fascinating New York Times package exploring...

“Why must you be so divisive?”
Unsurprising anecdote: I personally have noticed quite an overlap between the ones who justified their Confederacy fetish with "Heritage not Hate" and the ones now who are very upset by the suggestion that slavery (and anti-black racism overall) just might have had a role in shaping the America we know today.

The ones who notice and point out problems stemming from racism are of course the REAL racists.
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 27 Aug 2019, 03:38

Bret Stephens: Millennials are snowflakes that need to be able to deal with uncomfortable speech

Also Bret Stephens: If you call me a metaphorical bed bug on Twitter, I will contact your employer and challenge you to call me a bed bug to your face.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Jennifer
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 27 Aug 2019, 03:56

Wimp. He wouldn't last online three minutes as a woman.
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 27 Aug 2019, 09:16

Man, I would love to call Bret Stephens a bedbug to his face in front of his family. $10 says his family laughs along.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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nicole
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by nicole » 27 Aug 2019, 10:24

Tempted to quote pretty much the entirety of this "news article" but I'll just go with this:
But Richard A. Carranza, the schools chancellor, made desegregation his signature issue when he took the job in 2018, denouncing racial inequality and promising sweeping action. He has specifically questioned whether too many students were being labeled “gifted.”
That last phrase, "questioned whether too many students were being labeled 'gifted,'" links to a NY Post article, which states:
Speaking to District 4 parents in Queens, Carranza said the program — which channels top scorers into exclusive schools — qualifies too many kids.

“When you have over 35 percent of your students be designated as gifted and talented, we need to bottle the water we’re drinking and ship it all over the place,” he said. “Because that is far beyond the percentage of gifted and talented that, from a statistical perspective, should be found in the population.”

Those inordinate numbers, Carranza said, point to a flawed system. But in citing that percentage, Carranza was referencing only kids who actually took the exam — and he was also off on that figure.

A total of 9,074, or 28 percent, of 32,664 test takers qualified for either district or citywide G&T programs last year, according to Department of Education figures.

But only a small percentage of all city kids actually vie for the kindergarten- through third-grade spots. Of all pupils in those grades, only 2.7 percent qualified for G&T seats.
That was, of course, not explained in the new NYT story.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 27 Aug 2019, 11:02

Jennifer wrote:
27 Aug 2019, 03:56
Wimp. He wouldn't last online three minutes as a woman.
Hell, how has he lasted a day as a published writer on Twitter?
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