When journalism goes bad

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Aresen
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 11 Sep 2018, 14:12

JasonL wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 12:24
This is one of those things where I’d like to curse people to live in the world they say they want. Presto no consumption that hasn’t been affirmatively proven to be non toxic including by products. No pollution either.
There are many people I would like to curse with what they ask for.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 11 Sep 2018, 15:37

JasonL wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 12:24
This is one of those things where I’d like to curse people to live in the world they say they want. Presto no consumption that hasn’t been affirmatively proven to be non toxic including by products. No pollution either.
Yeahhhh I'm good with requiring that things be tested for safety with regard to food stuffs. Obviously you can get carried away with that sort of thing. Some people will die if they eat peanuts. That doesn't mean no foods should contain peanuts. Packaging should be tested to ensure it doesn't contaminate the food product. That doesn't mean packaging has to be safe to eat.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Andrew » 30 Sep 2018, 23:03

It's The Guardian, it's an opinion piece, and again, it's The Guardian, so I'm aware this isn't journalism on 3 levels. But still bad: Do you boast about your fitness? Watch out – you’ll unavoidably become rightwing

By that standard, based on her photo, she's clearly not rightwing.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by lunchstealer » 01 Oct 2018, 11:00

So food babe and joe mercola are crypto fascists?
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2018, 19:27

For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 01 Oct 2018, 19:52

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by lunchstealer » 01 Oct 2018, 20:06

Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be shit for a solid decade if we're lucky.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2018, 20:26

lunchstealer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:06
Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be shit for a solid decade if we're lucky.
Only ten years of shit? You're being waaaaay too optimistic, IMO.

I have a feeling the most reasonable best-case scenario we'll see is, government spending and the debt continue to grow, but under the Democrats it will grow to pay for things that at least try to help people (medical care, food for the poor, etc.), as opposed to spending on things intended to harm people (bombing the fuck out of already wretched countries, putting kids in concentration camps, etc.). The War on Marijuana and Those Who Use It might end, though the War On Effective Painkillers and Those Who Use Them won't.

But even that mostly shitty outcome is my hyper-optimistic best-case scenario.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 01 Oct 2018, 20:46

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:26
lunchstealer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:06
Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be shit for a solid decade if we're lucky.
Only ten years of shit? You're being waaaaay too optimistic, IMO.

I have a feeling the most reasonable best-case scenario we'll see is, government spending and the debt continue to grow, but under the Democrats it will grow to pay for things that at least try to help people (medical care, food for the poor, etc.), as opposed to spending on things intended to harm people (bombing the fuck out of already wretched countries, putting kids in concentration camps, etc.). The War on Marijuana and Those Who Use It might end, though the War On Effective Painkillers and Those Who Use Them won't.

But even that mostly shitty outcome is my hyper-optimistic best-case scenario.
I think you are basically correct here, but the sticker is the part I highlight. At some point, the shit hits the fan in terms of the debt load and we get inflation, default and a financial crisis. (Which will be blamed on 'the 1%.') I have no idea where the break point is on that. 'Predicting the next recession' is a mug's game. It's a coin-toss where it goes from there, but I doubt it will be libertarian. (Or pretty.)
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2018, 21:21

Aresen wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:46
I think you are basically correct here, but the sticker is the part I highlight. At some point, the shit hits the fan in terms of the debt load and we get inflation, default and a financial crisis. (Which will be blamed on 'the 1%.') I have no idea where the break point is on that. 'Predicting the next recession' is a mug's game. It's a coin-toss where it goes from there, but I doubt it will be libertarian. (Or pretty.)
Sure but, again, that will happen no matter who is in charge, and at least with the Democratic best-worst-case scenario I posited, the inflation and resulting financial crisis won't be preceded by our having caused a humanitarian crisis in Yemen and another one in our kiddie concentration camps and on and on. Frankly, at this point using tax money to save and gold-plate all presidential and Congressional bowel movements would bother me less than our current status quo of using tax money to increase the suffering of people who are already suffering enough.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 01 Oct 2018, 21:27

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 21:21
Aresen wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:46
I think you are basically correct here, but the sticker is the part I highlight. At some point, the shit hits the fan in terms of the debt load and we get inflation, default and a financial crisis. (Which will be blamed on 'the 1%.') I have no idea where the break point is on that. 'Predicting the next recession' is a mug's game. It's a coin-toss where it goes from there, but I doubt it will be libertarian. (Or pretty.)
Sure but, again, that will happen no matter who is in charge, and at least with the Democratic best-worst-case scenario I posited, the inflation and resulting financial crisis won't be preceded by our having caused a humanitarian crisis in Yemen and another one in our kiddie concentration camps and on and on. Frankly, at this point using tax money to save and gold-plate all presidential and Congressional bowel movements would bother me less than our current status quo of using tax money to increase the suffering of people who are already suffering enough.
I think the Democrats are fully capable of creating humanitarian crises in other countries - eg. Libya. (I'm not talking about Benghazi, I'm talking about St. Barry's decision to oust Gaddafi, made with all the 'good' humanitarian reasons and international support.)
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2018, 21:32

Aresen wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 21:27
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 21:21
Aresen wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:46
I think you are basically correct here, but the sticker is the part I highlight. At some point, the shit hits the fan in terms of the debt load and we get inflation, default and a financial crisis. (Which will be blamed on 'the 1%.') I have no idea where the break point is on that. 'Predicting the next recession' is a mug's game. It's a coin-toss where it goes from there, but I doubt it will be libertarian. (Or pretty.)
Sure but, again, that will happen no matter who is in charge, and at least with the Democratic best-worst-case scenario I posited, the inflation and resulting financial crisis won't be preceded by our having caused a humanitarian crisis in Yemen and another one in our kiddie concentration camps and on and on. Frankly, at this point using tax money to save and gold-plate all presidential and Congressional bowel movements would bother me less than our current status quo of using tax money to increase the suffering of people who are already suffering enough.
I think the Democrats are fully capable of creating humanitarian crises in other countries - eg. Libya. (I'm not talking about Benghazi, I'm talking about St. Barry's decision to oust Gaddafi, made with all the 'good' humanitarian reasons and international support.)
Oh, Democrats are definitely capable of doing that. Remember: the hypothetical I posited was clearly presented as a BEST-case scenario. The other likely possibilities are worse. (It would be great if either party figured out "Humanitarian concerns aside, we really can't afford to have our military keep fucking up other countries," but I will not hold my breath.)
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 01 Oct 2018, 22:16

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:26
but under the Democrats it will grow to pay for things that at least try to help people (medical care, food for the poor, etc.), as opposed to spending on things intended to harm people (bombing the fuck out of already wretched countries, putting kids in concentration camps, etc.).
They may stop putting kids in concentration camps. They may shift back to the Obama-era "putting parents and kids in shameful prisons" not much different from the camps.

What they won't do is stop bombing. Blues hate to look weak on "national defense", and one looks strong by murdering people in the developing world.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 01 Oct 2018, 22:47

Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:16
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:26
but under the Democrats it will grow to pay for things that at least try to help people (medical care, food for the poor, etc.), as opposed to spending on things intended to harm people (bombing the fuck out of already wretched countries, putting kids in concentration camps, etc.).
They may stop putting kids in concentration camps. They may shift back to the Obama-era "putting parents and kids in shameful prisons" not much different from the camps.

What they won't do is stop bombing. Blues hate to look weak on "national defense", and one looks strong by murdering people in the developing world.
There's still a slim chance the Dems will eventually lay off the "let's impoverish ourselves to fuck up the rest of the world" plan IF the leftier elements of it take over the party, as opposed to the Hillary-style "center-right" Dems that have run it since at least the Bill Clinton era. (This is based on my having spent the entire post-election era watching and listening to the debates and discussions various far-left-of-me friends have been having.)
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 01 Oct 2018, 22:57

Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:47
There's still a slim chance the Dems will eventually lay off the "let's impoverish ourselves to fuck up the rest of the world" plan IF the leftier elements of it take over the party, as opposed to the Hillary-style "center-right" Dems that have run it since at least the Bill Clinton era. (This is based on my having spent the entire post-election era watching and listening to the debates and discussions various far-left-of-me friends have been having.)
In the extremely unlikely case they did, we'd have the Reds back in power twice as fast.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 01 Oct 2018, 23:47

Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:57
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:47
There's still a slim chance the Dems will eventually lay off the "let's impoverish ourselves to fuck up the rest of the world" plan IF the leftier elements of it take over the party, as opposed to the Hillary-style "center-right" Dems that have run it since at least the Bill Clinton era. (This is based on my having spent the entire post-election era watching and listening to the debates and discussions various far-left-of-me friends have been having.)
In the extremely unlikely case they did, we'd have the Reds back in power twice as fast.
That's my thought. If the Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez faction gets control, they may avoid international adventurism, but they are going to be economic and social interventionists on a grand scale. The backlash will be swift (and just as toxic.)
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 02 Oct 2018, 00:15

Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:57
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 22:47
There's still a slim chance the Dems will eventually lay off the "let's impoverish ourselves to fuck up the rest of the world" plan IF the leftier elements of it take over the party, as opposed to the Hillary-style "center-right" Dems that have run it since at least the Bill Clinton era. (This is based on my having spent the entire post-election era watching and listening to the debates and discussions various far-left-of-me friends have been having.)
In the extremely unlikely case they did, we'd have the Reds back in power twice as fast.
If the lefty Dems took the helm AND spent their time undoing gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other Red-advantage tricks, I think it would be a hell of a lot harder for the Reds to get power back unless they completely disavow the racist bullshit they've openly embraced these past couple years. American demographics are still against the Reds*; I remember during Romney's candidacy reading something to the effect of "Every succeeding presidential election, the percentage of white voters relative to the rest drops three percent." And seeing what Trump hath wrought so far has jolted a lot of people who used to be of the opinion "Pfft, it doesn't really matter which one wins."

Also remember: the economic damage of Trump's tariffs hasn't yet been fully felt. Simply undoing the tariffs would win the Dems a lot of economic wiggle-room.

*It feels really weird using "the Reds" to refer to the extreme right-wingers as opposed to, y'know, Communists.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 02 Oct 2018, 00:52

Jennifer wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 00:15
If the lefty Dems took the helm AND spent their time undoing gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other Red-advantage tricks
They won't. The lefties won't be in power (the lefties are never in power), and the mainline Blues know they need an enemy. Or, more charitably, there'd be a pile of other things that would be more urgent, and when they got to that stuff, they'd suddenly be helpless against Red dirty parliamentary tricks.
Jennifer wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 00:15
*It feels really weird using "the Reds" to refer to the extreme right-wingers as opposed to, y'know, Communists.
Does it? I've been doing it for ten years and it feels perfectly normal.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 02 Oct 2018, 00:58

Jennifer wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 00:15
Also remember: the economic damage of Trump's tariffs hasn't yet been fully felt. Simply undoing the tariffs would win the Dems a lot of economic wiggle-room.
No it wouldn't. Remember Friedman's discussions of a concentrated versus a diffuse interest. In sum, tariffs make everyone worse off, but the damage is spread out in a way that is largely invisible on a per item basis. Taking down trade barriers hurts a concentrated interest that is usually highly localized, visible and vocal. That's the whole reason that the anti-NAFTA crowd got their message accepted - and don't forget that both Obama and Clinton campaigned vigorously against NAFTA in Ohio in 2008.

I do agree that Team Red is going to have to muzzle the bigots to win, but the big unknown is when the next recession happens and how bad it is. (There will be one, someday, I won't predict when.) If it comes before the 2020 election, Team Red will wear it. After 1/20/2021, Team Blue will wear it, no matter what the cause - I remain convinced Trump (or Pence) will lose in November 2020.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 02 Oct 2018, 09:56

lunchstealer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:06
Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be shit for a solid decade if we're lucky.
Depends. If we get someone like Hickenlooper, Klobuchar or Duckworth, we may be good. Though the last two may unleash crazy mysoginy in the Rs, the way Obama did with the racists. Then we're truly fucked. But relatively calm, moderate D could break the fever. If it's Kamala, Booker or Warren, we're screwed.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 02 Oct 2018, 09:58

Aresen wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 00:58
Jennifer wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 00:15
Also remember: the economic damage of Trump's tariffs hasn't yet been fully felt. Simply undoing the tariffs would win the Dems a lot of economic wiggle-room.
No it wouldn't. Remember Friedman's discussions of a concentrated versus a diffuse interest. In sum, tariffs make everyone worse off, but the damage is spread out in a way that is largely invisible on a per item basis. Taking down trade barriers hurts a concentrated interest that is usually highly localized, visible and vocal. That's the whole reason that the anti-NAFTA crowd got their message accepted - and don't forget that both Obama and Clinton campaigned vigorously against NAFTA in Ohio in 2008.

I do agree that Team Red is going to have to muzzle the bigots to win, but the big unknown is when the next recession happens and how bad it is. (There will be one, someday, I won't predict when.) If it comes before the 2020 election, Team Red will wear it. After 1/20/2021, Team Blue will wear it, no matter what the cause - I remain convinced Trump (or Pence) will lose in November 2020.
This isn't really true of tariffs. Anyone that consumes foreign steel or aluminum are right fucked, like the nail factory in MO. Because of international supply chains there is also concentrated pain.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 02 Oct 2018, 10:13

Mo wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 09:56
lunchstealer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 20:06
Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:52
Jennifer wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 19:27
For all the legitimate complaints you can make about right-wingers, THEY'RE not the ones proposing laws like "Let's make it illegal for fast-food restaurants to operate in low-income neighborhoods, since The Poors obviously can't be trusted to handle it."
Nope.

The Left is in a hyper-irritated, damn near anaphylactic state right now. Anything that annoys them is evil, and anything evil is anti-Left and thus Right. It doesn't have to make anything like sense, and what's "Right-wing" will vary from leftie to leftie.

This is why I dread them getting into power after the Trumpkin are out.
Oh yeah, it's gonna be shit for a solid decade if we're lucky.
Depends. If we get someone like Hickenlooper, Klobuchar or Duckworth, we may be good. Though the last two may unleash crazy mysoginy in the Rs, the way Obama did with the racists. Then we're truly fucked. But relatively calm, moderate D could break the fever. If it's Kamala, Booker or Warren, we're screwed.
I agree with this.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 02 Oct 2018, 10:16

I see no signs that the populist era is waning. As of today, I think it's 50/50 Trump is reelected.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 09 Oct 2018, 11:18

I want to sympathize with the guy in this article:

https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/09/uc-d ... ssion=true

But this one obvious omission bugs me:
To avoid causing Becky to take any further action against James, I did not reach out to her for comment, though her summary of what transpired is included in the report. Becky and James largely agree on what happened, according to the report, and their recollections barely diverge.
The UVA Jackie debacle featured a reporter who didn't contact a key figure in the story out of respect for the apparently more sympathetic figure. I doubt that this guy is a liar like Jackie, but the whole point of these safeguards is to not find out the hard way.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Highway » 09 Oct 2018, 17:24

thoreau wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 11:18
I want to sympathize with the guy in this article:

https://reason.com/blog/2018/10/09/uc-d ... ssion=true

But this one obvious omission bugs me:
To avoid causing Becky to take any further action against James, I did not reach out to her for comment, though her summary of what transpired is included in the report. Becky and James largely agree on what happened, according to the report, and their recollections barely diverge.
The UVA Jackie debacle featured a reporter who didn't contact a key figure in the story out of respect for the apparently more sympathetic figure. I doubt that this guy is a liar like Jackie, but the whole point of these safeguards is to not find out the hard way.
I sympathize also, but if it gets that far, I'm glad that at least there was some process there by which he was exonerated.

I think that it would be good to know why Becky appeared to change her mind about the encounter. Was she talked into it by her roommate? Was there some grudge roommate had against James? Was there something else involved? Were any other people involved in her apparent change of mind about it. Ultimately, there seems to be no disagreement on facts, nor on whether there was assent.

I think an important step in this kind of thing going forward is finding those things out, and finding out how, if other people are whispering in ears about it, how to temper that at least some so that it doesn't end up basically destroying a couple people's lives for a semester or more, even if they are eventually found not culpable of anything requiring further disciplinary action.
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