When journalism goes bad

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Sandy
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Sandy » 17 Jan 2018, 11:24

Mo wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:13
True. They then saw that they didn't work, the cure was worse than the disease and changed their tune.
There is still a strong segment of that community that didn't change their tune, though. They are pretty noticeable in DC and PG County.
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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 17 Jan 2018, 11:38

The model as I understand it goes something like:

- The world is composed of scumbags and good people
- Scumbags don't respect authority or participate in social institutions that would moderate their native scumbaggishness.
- Scumbags/lawbreakers will do literally anything, they are functionally predators or sociopaths of other stripes because that what you become when you don't respect or participate in the right institutions and certainly when you don't respect uniforms and our heroes
- You know a scumbag by lawless actions but also because our uniformed heroes have a version of Detect Evil - they pretty much know a scumbag when they see one. This is the vector for institutional racism. The band of visual cues for non scumbag white people is much much broader than the band of acceptable minorities. On top of visual cues, anything you do that looks like an additional failure to respect authority or participate in the right institutions reinforces the probability you are a scumbag.
- Everyone knows that European institutions and Christianity's influence and the enlightenment are the dominant civilizing factors on the globe. We are about to lose that progress to the hoards who want to assert there's nothing wrong with openly participating in a "Religion of Violence (tm)" for example. Stop with the relativism people and just speak the obvious truth!

something like that.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by dead_elvis » 17 Jan 2018, 11:40

Mo wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:13
True. They then saw that they didn't work, the cure was worse than the disease and changed their tune.
Maybe somewhat. Been a while but when I lived in Memphis (90s-00s) the influential churchy component to the black community didn't seem too sold on ending the WOD (from what I could tell, being on the outside in both regards).
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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 17 Jan 2018, 11:48

There is conservative intersectionality with black church folk. It is a thing.

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dead_elvis
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by dead_elvis » 17 Jan 2018, 11:53

As to the WFB quote, while yes the victim blaming is offensive, I have often considered something similar; that the left's original premise of self-fulfillment over fulfilling the requirements of one's traditions, has led to conflict with the left's current agenda of emphasizing sociableness. In the kerfuffle over cultural appropriation, some might be ill-intended mocking, but some is just innocent identity-exploration. "You don't have to be your parents! You don't have to follow your tribal traditions! You can be whoever you want to be! (except for anything non-your-ethnicity)" or "Unleash your barbaric yawp! But shhhh, you have to play well with others and make sure your yawp isn't any louder than anyone else's"
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Andrew
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Andrew » 17 Jan 2018, 12:55

JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 09:58
I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of bleeding hearts in practice. I hear calls for stiffer punishment for opioids daily around here.
Yeah, this. Outside of publications based in NYC or CA, I'm not sure calls for a better approach to opioids are all that common. Arizona is certainly quite content to keep treating opioids as grounds to incarcerate people for long periods of time.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 17 Jan 2018, 12:59

Andrew wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 12:55
JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 09:58
I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of bleeding hearts in practice. I hear calls for stiffer punishment for opioids daily around here.
Yeah, this. Outside of publications based in NYC or CA, I'm not sure calls for a better approach to opioids are all that common. Arizona is certainly quite content to keep treating opioids as grounds to incarcerate people for long periods of time.
For a moment, I read "incarcerate" in your last sentence as "incinerate".

It still works that way, though.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 17 Jan 2018, 13:09

I'm trying to work in a joke about Spinal Tap's drummers.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Eric the .5b » 17 Jan 2018, 13:10

JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:48
There is conservative intersectionality with black church folk. It is a thing.
See Prop 8 in Cali.

If not for the whole racism thing that chases people into Team Blue,, so-cons would be even stronger in this country.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 17 Jan 2018, 13:41

Eric the .5b wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 13:10
JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:48
There is conservative intersectionality with black church folk. It is a thing.
See Prop 8 in Cali.

If not for the whole racism thing that chases people into Team Blue,, so-cons would be even stronger in this country.
Agreed. I think the GOP will ultimately turn towards someone like Huckabee. He's a perfect big-on-social-programs socon.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 17 Jan 2018, 14:18

JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:38
The model as I understand it goes something like:

- The world is composed of scumbags and good people
- Scumbags don't respect authority or participate in social institutions that would moderate their native scumbaggishness.
- Scumbags/lawbreakers will do literally anything, they are functionally predators or sociopaths of other stripes because that what you become when you don't respect or participate in the right institutions and certainly when you don't respect uniforms and our heroes
- You know a scumbag by lawless actions but also because our uniformed heroes have a version of Detect Evil - they pretty much know a scumbag when they see one. This is the vector for institutional racism. The band of visual cues for non scumbag white people is much much broader than the band of acceptable minorities. On top of visual cues, anything you do that looks like an additional failure to respect authority or participate in the right institutions reinforces the probability you are a scumbag.
- Everyone knows that European institutions and Christianity's influence and the enlightenment are the dominant civilizing factors on the globe. We are about to lose that progress to the hoards who want to assert there's nothing wrong with openly participating in a "Religion of Violence (tm)" for example. Stop with the relativism people and just speak the obvious truth!

something like that.
On the surface, perhaps, but even the tiniest scratch in that veneer reveals something nastier and less consistent beneath. Like the idea "Fear the scumbags who don't respect authority" ... okay, yeah, except the conservatives who say this tend to be the same ones who, in other contexts, are all "The second amendment makes all the others possible!". We need our guns to protect us from out-of-control government, and meanwhile, he's justifications why every cop who ever shot an unarmed black man in cold blood was one-hundred-percent justified because those black people don't have proper respect for the government. "Fertilize the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants!" and also let's re-elect Sheriff Arpaio because he's Tough on Crime (namely the no-white forms of it).
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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 17 Jan 2018, 14:58

Oh I don't think there's a lot consistent about the model, I think its just how they see things. The conservative view of the second amendment in contrast to their view of all law enforcement is wacky and always has been. It's the mirror image of the left's "racist government institutions lets give government more power to imprison everyone!"

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Painboy » 17 Jan 2018, 18:13

Jennifer wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 14:18
JasonL wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:38
The model as I understand it goes something like:

- The world is composed of scumbags and good people
- Scumbags don't respect authority or participate in social institutions that would moderate their native scumbaggishness.
- Scumbags/lawbreakers will do literally anything, they are functionally predators or sociopaths of other stripes because that what you become when you don't respect or participate in the right institutions and certainly when you don't respect uniforms and our heroes
- You know a scumbag by lawless actions but also because our uniformed heroes have a version of Detect Evil - they pretty much know a scumbag when they see one. This is the vector for institutional racism. The band of visual cues for non scumbag white people is much much broader than the band of acceptable minorities. On top of visual cues, anything you do that looks like an additional failure to respect authority or participate in the right institutions reinforces the probability you are a scumbag.
- Everyone knows that European institutions and Christianity's influence and the enlightenment are the dominant civilizing factors on the globe. We are about to lose that progress to the hoards who want to assert there's nothing wrong with openly participating in a "Religion of Violence (tm)" for example. Stop with the relativism people and just speak the obvious truth!

something like that.
On the surface, perhaps, but even the tiniest scratch in that veneer reveals something nastier and less consistent beneath. Like the idea "Fear the scumbags who don't respect authority" ... okay, yeah, except the conservatives who say this tend to be the same ones who, in other contexts, are all "The second amendment makes all the others possible!". We need our guns to protect us from out-of-control government, and meanwhile, he's justifications why every cop who ever shot an unarmed black man in cold blood was one-hundred-percent justified because those black people don't have proper respect for the government. "Fertilize the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants!" and also let's re-elect Sheriff Arpaio because he's Tough on Crime (namely the no-white forms of it).
That's not necessarily racism though. It's more an ignorance of the effects of the situation and environment minorities often live in. Conservatives say follow the law and be compliant with the police because that actually works for the vast majority of white people. So in their view, since it works for them, those complaining about it aren't doing it right or have ulterior motives.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 17 Jan 2018, 19:34

Painboy wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 18:13
Conservatives say follow the law and be compliant with the police because that actually works for the vast majority of white people. So in their view, since it works for them, those complaining about it aren't doing it right or have ulterior motives.
Yes. I am a white male over 65. My experiences with cops have always been civil. It would be easy for me to say "Why are people complaining? I've never seen any bad behavior.* Just be nice to cops and they'll be nice to you." But I know very well that there are a lot of asshole cops who treat minorities like shit. If I decided to play Dunphy and claim those cases were just exceptions and outliers, it would be easy to attribute ulterior motives to the complainers.

*Actually, I did have an experience with a young cop who was very full of his authority. Fortunately, I'd had a lot of training in 'dealing with difficult people' and turned on every calming routine I'd ever learned.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 17 Jan 2018, 20:08

Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 02:04
conservatism was always more or less a polite veneer on racism in the domestic sphere.
I tend to agree, and it's from years of watching conservatives engage with libertarians. When conservatives speak/write for themselves, they couch everything in terms of social institutions and a law abiding society. When conservatives debate liberals, they attack each other. Both sides can score on the attack but on defense they tend to resort to more attack and it generally devolves into fecal flinging. When conservatives debate libertarians, they will inevitably take a very smug and dismissive attack "It would be nice if we could all be free to make our own choices, but that doesn't work in the real world", but when libertarians push back, 'well ordered society' arguments give way to contradiction upon contradiction to the point where the only thing left that explains why they advocate the policies they do is racism, and that explains all of it. The WOD, immigration, crime, welfare, even foreign policy. The conservative position on everything is consistent with 'keep the pink skins on top'.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by lunchstealer » 17 Jan 2018, 20:58

Warren wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 20:08
Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 02:04
conservatism was always more or less a polite veneer on racism in the domestic sphere.
I tend to agree, and it's from years of watching conservatives engage with libertarians. When conservatives speak/write for themselves, they couch everything in terms of social institutions and a law abiding society. When conservatives debate liberals, they attack each other. Both sides can score on the attack but on defense they tend to resort to more attack and it generally devolves into fecal flinging. When conservatives debate libertarians, they will inevitably take a very smug and dismissive attack "It would be nice if we could all be free to make our own choices, but that doesn't work in the real world", but when libertarians push back, 'well ordered society' arguments give way to contradiction upon contradiction to the point where the only thing left that explains why they advocate the policies they do is racism, and that explains all of it. The WOD, immigration, crime, welfare, even foreign policy. The conservative position on everything is consistent with 'keep the pink skins on top'.
And I'm sure it's 99% subconscious, and even of the ones who will privately admit that they buy into blacks-tend-to-be-genetically-inferior bullshit, they won't think of almost any of their stances in terms of well this is good for whites because it suppresses the blacks. But I suspect that 50% of them subconsciously picture black men when thinking of drug dealers, and white women and/or children (or a white man head of the household of white women and children) when thinking of, say, "victims' rights" talking points.

I would guess that there are some for whom it is just cultural identification against the Hollywood Liberal College Snowflake Intellectual Elite Snob Communists so they just parrot what all the rest say, but who maybe don't actually harbor much hidden racism.

And none of this is to say that progressives are immune to racism. There is a lot of White Man's Burden going on on Team Blue, too.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 25 Jan 2018, 10:36

More evidence for the racism hypothesis is comparing the amount of slack Trump would get for signing a clean DACA bill to the amount of slack he is getting for cheating on his wife with a porn star.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 25 Jan 2018, 12:42

Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 10:36
More evidence for the racism hypothesis is comparing the amount of slack Trump would get for signing a clean DACA bill to the amount of slack he is getting for cheating on his wife with a porn star.
I suppose some would say that the first is policy and the second is personal. But everyone knows damn well that if Obama had paid out hush money after cheating on his wife with a pr0n star he would have been forced out of office.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 25 Jan 2018, 12:57

thoreau wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 12:42
Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 10:36
More evidence for the racism hypothesis is comparing the amount of slack Trump would get for signing a clean DACA bill to the amount of slack he is getting for cheating on his wife with a porn star.
I suppose some would say that the first is policy and the second is personal. But everyone knows damn well that if Obama had paid out hush money after cheating on his wife with a pr0n star he would have been forced out of office.
I doubt it. It would have been a far bigger scandal. But I you need something criminal to unseat a president.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 25 Jan 2018, 13:22

Warren wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 12:57
thoreau wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 12:42
Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 10:36
More evidence for the racism hypothesis is comparing the amount of slack Trump would get for signing a clean DACA bill to the amount of slack he is getting for cheating on his wife with a porn star.
I suppose some would say that the first is policy and the second is personal. But everyone knows damn well that if Obama had paid out hush money after cheating on his wife with a pr0n star he would have been forced out of office.
I doubt it. It would have been a far bigger scandal. But I you need something criminal to unseat a president.
No fucking way that party elders and donors wouldn't say "We're done with you" if Obama paid hush money to a pr0n star.

Bill Clinton is another matter, of course.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 25 Jan 2018, 13:25

It's not the banging, it's the hush money.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 25 Jan 2018, 13:25

Mo wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 13:25
It's not the banging, it's the hush money.
It's not a crime.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 25 Jan 2018, 13:30

Disagree on what it would take for party to turn on BHO. He could do literally anything.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 25 Jan 2018, 13:34

Joe Kernan of CNBC does not know that Ireland is a separate country from the UK, that Scotland does not have it's own currency, Northern Ireland is separate from Ireland, but also uses the pound. But he loves Ireland.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 25 Jan 2018, 13:35

JasonL wrote:
25 Jan 2018, 13:30
Disagree on what it would take for party to turn on BHO. He could do literally anything.
I wouldn't go that far. There are lines. But paying off the mistress is pretty SOP in politics.
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