When journalism goes bad

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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 15 Jan 2018, 12:22

WFB after MLK was shot. Civil disobedience means that sometimes folks will be disobedient and assassinate civil right leaders, so civil disobedience is bad.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 15 Jan 2018, 12:29

Wells Fargo Bank?
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Dangerman » 15 Jan 2018, 13:26

Wm. F. Buckley

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JasonL
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 15 Jan 2018, 15:10

Conservatives and cop suckers of all stripes believe that. Civil society is an unstable equilibrium and anarchy awaits us all at the slightest disturbance. Slippery slope arguments were my favorites in college but they are the worst.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 15 Jan 2018, 15:16

Some slippery slope arguments are reasonable, but once you start accepting slippery slope arguments you'll eventually accept the bad ones too and then everything goes to shit.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Warren » 15 Jan 2018, 15:42

It's the conflation of civil disobedience with violence that gives me head asplode.
The W F Buckley could write such words in the wake of Letter from Birmingham Jail... pathetic.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Sandy » 16 Jan 2018, 02:04

Warren wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 15:42
It's the conflation of civil disobedience with violence that gives me head asplode.
The W F Buckley could write such words in the wake of Letter from Birmingham Jail... pathetic.
It's stuff like this that convinced me that conservatism was always more or less a polite veneer on racism in the domestic sphere. Why they picked up on free market economics is beyond me.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Painboy » 16 Jan 2018, 02:09

Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 02:04
Warren wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 15:42
It's the conflation of civil disobedience with violence that gives me head asplode.
The W F Buckley could write such words in the wake of Letter from Birmingham Jail... pathetic.
It's stuff like this that convinced me that conservatism was always more or less a polite veneer on racism in the domestic sphere. Why they picked up on free market economics is beyond me.
Because that was the status quo. I mean their conservatives. They are suspicious of new things and like to rely on what worked (in there view) in the past.

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thoreau
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by thoreau » 16 Jan 2018, 02:22

I'm not sure just how free-market the status quo of whatever era was, but certainly free-market rhetoric can be used in ways that are more favorable to the interests of the haves than the have-nots. If a given industrial segment is doing well, free-market rhetoric can be used to argue against punishing winners with envy-driven policies, never mind questions about whether the haves got it via honest competition or state-supported rent seeking.

And since the haves will almost certainly not be the ones on the receiving end of heavy racism, it's pretty natural that racism will wind up in the same big tent as rhetorical defenders of the well-off.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Andrew » 16 Jan 2018, 06:48

Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 02:04
Warren wrote:
15 Jan 2018, 15:42
It's the conflation of civil disobedience with violence that gives me head asplode.
The W F Buckley could write such words in the wake of Letter from Birmingham Jail... pathetic.
It's stuff like this that convinced me that conservatism was always more or less a polite veneer on racism in the domestic sphere. Why they picked up on free market economics is beyond me.
Because the lefties who claimed to be fighting institutional racism were also commies, so opposing them meant becoming pro-free market.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 16 Jan 2018, 06:59

It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 16 Jan 2018, 08:37

JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.
Then again Donald Trump won the Republican primary pretty handily and basically the only box he checks is 'racist'.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Aresen » 16 Jan 2018, 10:23

Mo wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 08:37
JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.
Then again Donald Trump won the Republican primary pretty handily and basically the only box he checks is 'racist'.
That was the one that resonated. He was also a rent-seeker, for all that he pretended to be an entrepreneur.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 16 Jan 2018, 10:31

I'm not fond of explanations quite that simple, but I'm also not going to the mat for the current conservative consensus in this regard. What I would resist is something like "there is nothing to conservatism but racism and there never has been".

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Sandy » 16 Jan 2018, 10:36

JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.
I don't doubt that there are conservatives who weren't, at their core, full-on racist. But conservatism seems to always come back to fancy arguments about why darkie shouldn't come out to play, at least in the postwar period.

Now, of course, I think conservatism has lost the veneer.
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 16 Jan 2018, 10:46

JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 10:31
I'm not fond of explanations quite that simple, but I'm also not going to the mat for the current conservative consensus in this regard. What I would resist is something like "there is nothing to conservatism but racism and there never has been".
I agree to that. I just think that it is the glue that holds the coalition together, much to the chagrin of some folks who did not sign up for that part. Avik Roy came to that conclusion 2 years ago. Though Roy white-washes the intellectual backing of that support quite a bit, by ignoring Buckley on the Civil Rights movement and apartheid.
Last edited by Mo on 16 Jan 2018, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 16 Jan 2018, 10:47

I don't think Sandy's is a fair take in the sense that any argument about the value of cohesive social institutions would be subject to the kind of criticism that such arguments are always about marginalizing those outside those institutions. It may be true in a sense but also kind of it's not the whole story. I think for example that many conservatives would love to see rising rates of two parent households among minority groups, and I think they would see that as a good because it increases integration of minority groups into social fabric that tends to improve outcomes.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Painboy » 17 Jan 2018, 01:23

Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 10:36
JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.
I don't doubt that there are conservatives who weren't, at their core, full-on racist. But conservatism seems to always come back to fancy arguments about why darkie shouldn't come out to play, at least in the postwar period.

Now, of course, I think conservatism has lost the veneer.
I think you are confusing outcomes with motivations. For instance conservatives have supported the War on Drugs because they thought it would make society better not because they hate black people. If you ask its supporters they'll honestly claim it's helping black communities by keeping drugs off the street.

This is similar to liberals supporting welfare programs despite the fact that there is good evidence it hurts many of the people their trying to help in the long run.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 17 Jan 2018, 08:27

Painboy wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 01:23
I think you are confusing outcomes with motivations. For instance conservatives have supported the War on Drugs because they thought it would make society better not because they hate black people. If you ask its supporters they'll honestly claim it's helping black communities by keeping drugs off the street.
This is hard to square with the desired response to drugs in big cities vs. opioids. WRT urban drug use, the recommended conservative policy is harsh sentencing and a major police presence. The focus for opioids has been looking at root causes, jobs and treatment.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by nicole » 17 Jan 2018, 08:32

Mo wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 08:27
Painboy wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 01:23
I think you are confusing outcomes with motivations. For instance conservatives have supported the War on Drugs because they thought it would make society better not because they hate black people. If you ask its supporters they'll honestly claim it's helping black communities by keeping drugs off the street.
This is hard to square with the desired response to drugs in big cities vs. opioids. WRT urban drug use, the recommended conservative policy is harsh sentencing and a major police presence. The focus for opioids has been looking at root causes, jobs and treatment.
Except in real life the response to opioids has been super fucking carceral.
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Mo
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 17 Jan 2018, 08:38

Agree because law enforcement DGAF and is on autopilot. But conservatives used to make fun of "root cause" analysis for inner city drug use, but now that it's the WWC, they're suddenly bleeding hearts.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by JasonL » 17 Jan 2018, 09:58

I'll be honest, I don't see a lot of bleeding hearts in practice. I hear calls for stiffer punishment for opioids daily around here.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Jennifer » 17 Jan 2018, 10:24

Painboy wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 01:23
Sandy wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 10:36
JasonL wrote:
16 Jan 2018, 06:59
It feels like the racist veneer description is a bit too simple. By analogy the left just wants free stuff paid for by people they don’t like and left elites want the power to decide who gets what. There is some truth there but I’m not going to say that’s all there is. I think conservatives worried about the institutions of marriage and church are worried about something they see as dangers to civil society.
I don't doubt that there are conservatives who weren't, at their core, full-on racist. But conservatism seems to always come back to fancy arguments about why darkie shouldn't come out to play, at least in the postwar period.

Now, of course, I think conservatism has lost the veneer.
I think you are confusing outcomes with motivations. For instance conservatives have supported the War on Drugs because they thought it would make society better not because they hate black people.
It doesn't have to be either/or: conservatives support the war on drugs (except for their own kids and nieces/nephews, of course, who have medical problems, unlike drug addicts who tend to be poorer and darker-skinned) because they think getting black people out of their neighborhoods and into the prisons is HOW they think society will be made better. Can't have degenerate jazz musicians running around corrupting the purity of us white women, y'know.
This is similar to liberals supporting welfare programs despite the fact that there is good evidence it hurts many of the people their trying to help in the long run.
It's far worse. Giving a hungry person a food stamp and then thinking "Hey, lookit me, I'm helping this hungry person!" doesn't require the willful blindness to reality as does putting a drug user in prison, saddling them with a lifelong criminal record (and also preventing them from ever casting a vote ever again) and then thinking "Hey, lookit me, I'm saving this person from letting drugs ruin his life!"

It is a pretty effective way of disenfranchising a lot of dark people, though. Contributes to the destruction of the "family values" conservatives pretend to care about, too, by taking away black men's chances of ever making a living good enough to support a family.
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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Dangerman » 17 Jan 2018, 10:35

Black communities were very vocal in their support of anti-crime, anti-drug policies all through the 70s and 80s.

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Re: When journalism goes bad

Post by Mo » 17 Jan 2018, 11:13

True. They then saw that they didn't work, the cure was worse than the disease and changed their tune.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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