To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

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J sub D
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To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by J sub D » 17 Mar 2011, 16:16

Much ado about this here in Michigan.

Gov. Rick Snyder plans to tax pensions
The Detroit Free Press wrote:Gov. Rick Snyder proposes to eliminate income tax exemptions for pensions and most other retirement income in Michigan as part of his budget plan Thursday, a move that would generate nearly $1 billion in additional revenue for the state and largely offset a $1.5 billion tax cut for businesses, a source familiar with the plan told the Free Press.
1) If you're going to have an income tax, income is income and should be taxed the same regardless of source.
2) Businesses don't pay taxes, they collect them.
3) Does the wealthiest segment of society really need a tax break?
EDIT: Oh, and the civil rights and basic human dignity thing too. - JasonL

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by pistoffnick » 17 Mar 2011, 16:18

We ALL need a tax break.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Jennifer » 17 Mar 2011, 16:36

Agreed. Indeed, from a simple "fairness" perspective (as opposed to libertarian decoder-ring qualifications), I've thought "pensions and other money you get merely for existing" should be taxed at a higher rate than "money you have to get up and go to work for." Working to earn money -- even at minimum wage -- is a lot more expensive than collecting a pension: you have to pay for transportation costs to get to work, work-appropriate clothing, arrange to feed yourself without access to your home kitchen or pantry, lots of expenses pensioners don't have to pay.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Stevo Darkly » 17 Mar 2011, 16:39

Hmm. But old people are a powerful political bloc, especially retirees. There are lots of them, and they tend to feel entitled to stuff, and they have lots of free time. We'll see if this happens.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by JasonL » 17 Mar 2011, 16:44

If it was accumulated on a tax deferred basis, the pension should be taxed as income when you receive the payment - that's what "deferred" usually means. If it was accumulated on an after tax basis such that it was reported as W2 or corporate income when the contribution to the pension fund was made, you might not want to tax the whole thing again when payments are made. I didn't know anyone was getting the deduction on both ends.

EDIT: don't underestimate the "they have lots of time on their hands" thing Stevo pointed out. It's incredibly potent.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by thoreau » 17 Mar 2011, 16:48

A nitpick:
J sub D wrote:2) Businesses don't pay taxes, they collect them.
Actually, whether a tax is collected from the customer or paid by the business depends on whether the tax eats into the profit per unit sold or increases the price per unit sold. If it eats into profits, it is most definitely paid by the business. If it goes into a price increase, it is most definitely being collected by the business. And, in all likelihood, it's actually a mixture of each. Moreover, even if it is being passed along to consumers, if consumers respond by buying less then it still reduces total profits, even if the marginal profit per unit sold does not change.

Norbert, will you back me up on this?

(A trivial response is that even if the taxes eat into profits, those profits came from sales to customers. That would be like saying that you don't pay taxes, your employer does, because you can't pay them without first getting a check from your employer. It's true on some trivial level, but completely misses the point of which ox actually got gored.)

None of this should be construed as an argument for or against any particular level of business taxation. I'm just observing that the issue is a bit more complicated than it's sometimes made out to be. Sometimes libertarians will say that businesses don't pay taxes, customers do, to either appeal to those whose sympathy is with customers or to mock the alleged economic ignorance of those who argue for a business tax. Other times, though, libertarians will say that business taxes hurt business and hence kill jobs. The truth is that it depends on market conditions.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Ellie » 17 Mar 2011, 18:22

I'm old! Gimme gimme gimme!
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Norbert Wronkletoad » 17 Mar 2011, 18:24

thoreau wrote:A nitpick:
J sub D wrote:2) Businesses don't pay taxes, they collect them.
Actually, whether a tax is collected from the customer or paid by the business depends on whether the tax eats into the profit per unit sold or increases the price per unit sold. If it eats into profits, it is most definitely paid by the business. If it goes into a price increase, it is most definitely being collected by the business. And, in all likelihood, it's actually a mixture of each. Moreover, even if it is being passed along to consumers, if consumers respond by buying less then it still reduces total profits, even if the marginal profit per unit sold does not change.

Norbert, will you back me up on this?

(A trivial response is that even if the taxes eat into profits, those profits came from sales to customers. That would be like saying that you don't pay taxes, your employer does, because you can't pay them without first getting a check from your employer. It's true on some trivial level, but completely misses the point of which ox actually got gored.)

None of this should be construed as an argument for or against any particular level of business taxation. I'm just observing that the issue is a bit more complicated than it's sometimes made out to be. Sometimes libertarians will say that businesses don't pay taxes, customers do, to either appeal to those whose sympathy is with customers or to mock the alleged economic ignorance of those who argue for a business tax. Other times, though, libertarians will say that business taxes hurt business and hence kill jobs. The truth is that it depends on market conditions.
that's a common (incorrect) reflexive answer. The burden of a tax is shouldered partly by the producer and partly by the consumer. Who gets what portion depends on the shape of the supply and demand curves, and the relative elasticities (somewhat close to P* +t) of said curves.

if there's constant cost (uber elastic), the burden is shifted to the consumers; if we're talking perfectly inelastic supply function of the industry, then it falls completely on (at least a factor of) production. So, unless you're gonna have a bunch of caveats or at least show that you have a constant cost situation, you can't really say #2.

Further reading: Pindyk &Rubenfeld, "Microeconomics" (5th ed); Pashigian: "Price Theory" (2nd ed). Probably "baby Varian" (undergrad version of his "Microeconomic Analysis" would have a bit on this in the Theory of the Firm half... ymmv.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by thoreau » 17 Mar 2011, 18:35

Norbert Wronkletoad wrote:Further reading: Pindyk &Rubenfeld, "Microeconomics" (5th ed); Pashigian: "Price Theory" (2nd ed). Probably "baby Varian" (undergrad version of his "Microeconomic Analysis" would have a bit on this in the Theory of the Firm half... ymmv.
*Ahem*

The correct phrasing is "I suggest you read Price Theory by Pashigian before you embarrass yourself any further."
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Warren » 17 Mar 2011, 18:36

J sub D wrote:1) If you're going to have an income tax, income is income and should be taxed the same regardless of source.
Well that's just it isn't it. Defining what is and isn't income is what makes the income tax naked oppression. It's also what makes the flat tax a big lie. A progressive tax curve isn't so monstrous. It's those thousands of pages of tax code that hide all the corruption. And all that is about obfuscating what income is. I have a huge problem with income tax. Not just because the tax code is corrupt. I also think it's a violation of the forth amendment. And worst of all, the requirement to file detailed reports of all your finances to the government is just fundamentally unacceptable. But of all the folks dry fucking me up the ass through the income tax, pensioners are pretty far down the list.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Norbert Wronkletoad » 17 Mar 2011, 18:40

zq
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Kolohe » 17 Mar 2011, 19:14

"The Theory of The Firm Half" - NTTAWWT, but I'm somewhat more keen on the Theory of Macro Bouncy Bouncy.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 17 Mar 2011, 19:36

All of this is irrelevant to the basic premise that people my age should be exempted from all taxes.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Mar 2011, 19:42

D.A. Ridgely wrote:All of this is irrelevant to the basic premise that people my age should be exempted from all taxes.
In all fairness, Mr. Ridgely was probably posting that to bulletin boards when he was 20.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 17 Mar 2011, 19:49

Hugh Akston wrote:
D.A. Ridgely wrote:All of this is irrelevant to the basic premise that people my age should be exempted from all taxes.
In all fairness, Mr. Ridgely was probably posting that to bulletin boards when he was 20.
Actually, I was far too busy Smashing the State, Fighting Oppression from the Man and just generally hanging around on the Group W bench. (Not to mention that at age 20 I'm fairly sure my relationship to the state was almost entirely parasitic. I paid sales taxes, sure, but come to think of it, I was opposed to having to pay that, too. )

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Aresen » 17 Mar 2011, 23:23

One of the things I truly love about Grylliade is that we can argue about things like taxes without some more-libertarian-than-thou asshole screaming "ZOMG! YOU LIKE TAXES! YOU FUCKING STATIST!".

It's not that we agree on everything - hell, we'd be bored to death with each other in 20 minutes if we did - it's just that we are willing to grant those we disagree with a measure of courtesy and fair argument.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by JasonL » 18 Mar 2011, 10:30

I wish there were more adult conversations about taxation out in the world, too. I start with the premise that taxing productivity is dumb, taxing investment is dumb to the extent investment is productive or innovative, and specifically incenting risk taking like venture capital is smart. Incenting health and retirement saving is smart. That leaves a whole bunch of stuff you can tax. Consumption with large negative externalities is the first pass. 'Idle' consumption is another pass. Income above a level where marginal increases no longer deter productivity (I like raising rates on the $1millionth dollar earned per household for example). The mortgage tax deduction needs to go, and that's raising taxes on myself by a good margin.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Kolohe » 18 Mar 2011, 10:47

JasonL wrote: 'Idle' consumption is another pass
Do you mean something like the 'luxury tax' that was passed on yachts under Bush Sr? Because that turned out to be a complete clusterfark
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/budget/budget_1-1.html
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 18 Mar 2011, 11:03

JasonL wrote:I wish there were more adult conversations about taxation out in the world, too. I start with the premise that taxing productivity is dumb, taxing investment is dumb to the extent investment is productive or innovative, and specifically incenting risk taking like venture capital is smart. Incenting health and retirement saving is smart. That leaves a whole bunch of stuff you can tax. Consumption with large negative externalities is the first pass. 'Idle' consumption is another pass. Income above a level where marginal increases no longer deter productivity (I like raising rates on the $1millionth dollar earned per household for example). The mortgage tax deduction needs to go, and that's raising taxes on myself by a good margin.
Incenting? Like with a thurible?

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Post by Jennifer » 18 Mar 2011, 11:50

I don't think it's possible to have a fair system of taxation unless you can somehow make the politicians personally responsible for it; i.e., if the politicos whose impossible promises led to our current pension mess could be the ones expected to pay for it. But that's obviously not possible.

As just one anecdote: Connecticut had no state income tax at all until the late 80s or early 90s, when Governor Weicker imposed one, and promised that once the state got this extra bit of revenue it would solve all out financial problems now and forevermore. Except now we're actually one of the worst-off states, where debt vs. expenses vs. revenue is concerned, and we also have either the highest or second-highest per capita tax burden in the country (New Jersey and Connecticut take turns alternately holding that dubious honor, or being first runner-up), and there's talk of raising the income tax AND sales tax AND other taxes, but this time, for sure, the extra bit of revenue will solve all our financial problems now and forevermore, at least until the pension fund runs out in 2018.

Even more ominously, to me, is how these proposed new taxes will be quite regressive, and hurt the poor. Right now, for example, there is no sales tax on clothing up to $75; they want to do away with that, which will disproportionately hurt the poor, especially the poor with kids who need all-new wardrobes every year after outgrowing their old ones. The new governor also proposed that, when you buy something on sale, or with a discount coupon, you pay the sales tax on the full price. That's particularly ridiculous when you consider how often the "full price" or "manufacturers' suggested retail" is purely fictional; there is a chain of men's business clothing stores in the state (I see their commercials all the time), and it's effectively impossible to walk in there and buy merely "one suit at full price" because they always, ALWAYS, have some sort of sale: buy one suit and get one free; buy one suit and get two free dress shirts, a pair of shoes and two free ties; buy one jacket and get two pairs of free pants ... that's their business model.

I'm off-topic, I realize.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by JasonL » 18 Mar 2011, 11:59

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
JasonL wrote:I wish there were more adult conversations about taxation out in the world, too. I start with the premise that taxing productivity is dumb, taxing investment is dumb to the extent investment is productive or innovative, and specifically incenting risk taking like venture capital is smart. Incenting health and retirement saving is smart. That leaves a whole bunch of stuff you can tax. Consumption with large negative externalities is the first pass. 'Idle' consumption is another pass. Income above a level where marginal increases no longer deter productivity (I like raising rates on the $1millionth dollar earned per household for example). The mortgage tax deduction needs to go, and that's raising taxes on myself by a good margin.
Incenting? Like with a thurible?
I thought that was enscenting ...

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by JasonL » 18 Mar 2011, 12:04

Kolohe wrote:
JasonL wrote: 'Idle' consumption is another pass
Do you mean something like the 'luxury tax' that was passed on yachts under Bush Sr? Because that turned out to be a complete clusterfark
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/budget/budget_1-1.html
Less goods targeting than that. It's another way of saying "maybe a progressive consumption tax with a decently large flat exemption amount is a good idea". Tax progressively consumption dollars per household above some level you are calling base consumption.

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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by Jennifer » 18 Mar 2011, 12:37

Maybe a flat tax, but with a standard deduction high enough to actually live on? But even then, it wouldn't really work unless you had different standard deductions for different areas; an income that would make you comfortably middle-class in the Midwest or Southeast (excluding the DC suburban zone) would still make you miserably impoverished in most of the Northeast.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by lunchstealer » 18 Mar 2011, 13:06

JasonL wrote:
Kolohe wrote:
JasonL wrote: 'Idle' consumption is another pass
Do you mean something like the 'luxury tax' that was passed on yachts under Bush Sr? Because that turned out to be a complete clusterfark
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/budget/budget_1-1.html
Less goods targeting than that. It's another way of saying "maybe a progressive consumption tax with a decently large flat exemption amount is a good idea". Tax progressively consumption dollars per household above some level you are calling base consumption.
I don't know how you make a consumption tax progressive. However, you could make it progressive-ish by having a VAT/Consumption tax with no exemptions, but with a significant annual rebate per person. The rebate amount could be some percentage of the total revenues for the previous year, divided by the number of people.
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Re: To senior citizens: No, you are not fucking special.

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 18 Mar 2011, 13:54

Texas clearly doesn't think senior citizens are special. I'm behind a guy at the self check-out Kroger who's trying to buy a few groceries including a six pack and a bottle of wine. This requires an attendant to come and ensure the customer isn't a minor. Okay, fair enough. But the attendant asks to see the man's identification for proof of age, he gives her his driver's license and she duly reads aloud something/something/1928.

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