DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

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Jake
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Jake » 07 Nov 2017, 17:13

Highway wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 15:32
And really, it doesn't matter what time the clock says to any of us, only that other people expect us to do certain things within a certain range of numbers on the clock. So it's not a clock problem, it's a people problem. I'd be fine with One World time, since then everyone would know exactly what time it is everywhere, no changing clocks. And then sunrise would be whenever it shows up at your horizon. It wouldn't change whether you'd need to know how far apart work schedules are. It's just kinda silly that we expect "daylight hours" to be kinda the same hours on a clock face for every human.
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Mo
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Mo » 07 Nov 2017, 17:34

Highway wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 15:32
It's just kinda silly that we expect "daylight hours" to be kinda the same hours on a clock face for every human.
But it makes it easier to communicate with people in those areas. Like I know if I call someone in London at 8PM London time, they're not going to be in the office. But at 15:00 everywhere, I have to do a lot of thinking.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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the innominate one
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by the innominate one » 07 Nov 2017, 17:40

Exactly.
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Jake
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Jake » 07 Nov 2017, 17:48

Mo wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:34
But it makes it easier to communicate with people in those areas. Like I know if I call someone in London at 8PM London time, they're not going to be in the office. But at 15:00 everywhere, I have to do a lot of thinking.
The things you need to know to call someone in London under the current system:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • How many hours "off" is London time?
  • Are they ahead of us or behind us?
  • (Do some math.)
  • (Call.)
The things you need to know to call someone in London under global time:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • (Call.)
I propose that the latter is the simplest.
"Facebook is like a locker room with all the players screaming at each other how much they have to win and then forgetting they have to take the field and actually play the gawddamn game." -- D.A. Ridgely

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Eric the .5b
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 Nov 2017, 17:57

Jadagul wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 15:02
I mean, obviously the real problem is the degree of variation people have in circadian rhythm.

Nicole and I are _never_ going to be happy with the same time schedule, because I'm most alert in the middle of the night and would rather wake up at sundown and go to bed around dawn than the reverse. I'm an extreme case, but there's pretty continuous variation between "people who wake up at 4AM" and "people who wake up at 4 PM."
And that's a scheduling problem for different people. My circadian rhythm is always a war with my schedule.

The handy aspect of a variable-hours setup is that once you get a schedule, it doesn't change on your rhythm. It's always dark, light, or whatever at a given time. Seasonal changes are slow enough to adjust to, probably without noticing.

Now, there'd be weirdness: polar regions would end up with no day or night hours during parts of the year, because they don't have day or night at those times. People at polar stations would probably switch to some other locations' time standard for their daily schedule, just as they do now.
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Highway » 07 Nov 2017, 18:36

Jake wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:48
Mo wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:34
But it makes it easier to communicate with people in those areas. Like I know if I call someone in London at 8PM London time, they're not going to be in the office. But at 15:00 everywhere, I have to do a lot of thinking.
The things you need to know to call someone in London under the current system:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • How many hours "off" is London time?
  • Are they ahead of us or behind us?
  • (Do some math.)
  • (Call.)
The things you need to know to call someone in London under global time:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • (Call.)
I propose that the latter is the simplest.
Yeah, like Jake said, it's only 'easier' because you do it that way now and you have a lot of implicit knowledge already making it easier. But if all you needed to know was "what are the hours of the London office?" then you don't have to worry about where they are or how many time zones are between you and somewhere else.
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by the innominate one » 07 Nov 2017, 19:12

Jake's argument might have some merit but this:

"How many hours "off" is London time?
Are they ahead of us or behind us?"

Is stealing a base to make it seem more complicated. Just answering the first question can include all the information for the second question. How many hours off from my time is my mom? -3 hours

His many hours am I off relative to my friend in Pensacola? +2
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thoreau
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by thoreau » 07 Nov 2017, 19:22

In most cases most people know that the London office is probably open between 9ish and 5ish. You know that the Hong Kong office is probably open between 9ish and 5ish. Yeah, local cultures might start an hour ahead or behind that or close an hour earlier or later, and that matters if you're looking to schedule a call near the end of their work day, but if you are aiming near the middle of their work day then you're fine. Looking at the time difference tells you immediately whether you're somewhere in the middle of their work day (no problem) or near the edges (need to check).

Time zones encode a substantial amount of information that will be relevant to people who start their day more-or-less around sunrise and end their work day more-or-less around sunset. No, it won't be relevant to Jadagul, but since we have a yellow sun that is toxic to his kind he's pretty much screwed under any time scheme. Either you plan things with him at night (whenever that may be) or you move to a planet whose star only emits neutrinos, like his home world.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Highway » 07 Nov 2017, 19:29

the innominate one wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 19:12
Jake's argument might have some merit but this:

"How many hours "off" is London time?
Are they ahead of us or behind us?"

Is stealing a base to make it seem more complicated. Just answering the first question can include all the information for the second question. How many hours off from my time is my mom? -3 hours

His many hours am I off relative to my friend in Pensacola? +2
For 2 and 3 hours, sure. Even for 5 or 6. But more than that? 8, 10? They're significantly harder to remember which direction, and with much more of a "middle of the night" failure chance.
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the innominate one
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by the innominate one » 07 Nov 2017, 19:44

24 hour clock.
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Mo
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Mo » 07 Nov 2017, 20:25

Jake wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:48
Mo wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:34
But it makes it easier to communicate with people in those areas. Like I know if I call someone in London at 8PM London time, they're not going to be in the office. But at 15:00 everywhere, I have to do a lot of thinking.
The things you need to know to call someone in London under the current system:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • How many hours "off" is London time?
  • Are they ahead of us or behind us?
  • (Do some math.)
  • (Call.)
The things you need to know to call someone in London under global time:
  • Between what times is the London office open?
  • (Call.)
I propose that the latter is the simplest.
Under the current situation, all I need to remember is one number for London, +5. I can assume hours are roughly the same. In the new system I would have to remember London 400-1200*.

* For simplicity, I assuming that EST is the new default when it would really be UTC.
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Mo » 07 Nov 2017, 20:28

Highway wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 19:29
the innominate one wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 19:12
Jake's argument might have some merit but this:

"How many hours "off" is London time?
Are they ahead of us or behind us?"

Is stealing a base to make it seem more complicated. Just answering the first question can include all the information for the second question. How many hours off from my time is my mom? -3 hours

His many hours am I off relative to my friend in Pensacola? +2
For 2 and 3 hours, sure. Even for 5 or 6. But more than that? 8, 10? They're significantly harder to remember which direction, and with much more of a "middle of the night" failure chance.
Having dealt with 10 for a long time, it's actually easier than 5 because 10 is -2 and flip AM to PM.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Jake
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Jake » 08 Nov 2017, 02:07

the innominate one wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 19:12
Jake's argument might have some merit but this:

"How many hours "off" is London time?
Are they ahead of us or behind us?"

Is stealing a base to make it seem more complicated.
*shrug*

Those are the steps I go through, because I can usually remember that I'm eight hours off of GMT, but I don't call overseas often enough to reliably remember which way it is without double-checking (or conjuring up an image in my mind of the spinning Earth and working from there). If you want to combine those steps, go right ahead; I daresay the point stands either way.
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thoreau
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by thoreau » 08 Nov 2017, 02:26

One nice thing about time zones is that I can hear and tell stories with people from other places and understand when somebody says "I had to be at the airport at 6am" that person probably got up earlier than usual, and if they say "I worked until six that day" it probably wasn't a particularly long work day, while if they say "My kid let me sleep until eight on Saturday" they probably had an unusually long sleep for parent, and if they say "I worked until 11pm" they were probably pulling long hours for a big project.

Imagine a world where these simple referents aren't available. People would no doubt come up with some other set of terms to relate the same ideas...and, hey, maybe those could be the terms we use to label the parts of the day when communicating and making plans.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Mo
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Mo » 08 Nov 2017, 09:26

Also, traveling becomes more difficult. When you land from a plane, they tell you the local time, so you can use your regular context like you wake up around 6 or 7 AM, dinner is around 7 or 8 PM. There will be local cultural differences (like Spaniards eating dinner later), but for the most part it makes adjusting to a new time zone easier.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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nicole
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by nicole » 08 Nov 2017, 09:38

Eric the .5b wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 17:57
Jadagul wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 15:02
I mean, obviously the real problem is the degree of variation people have in circadian rhythm.

Nicole and I are _never_ going to be happy with the same time schedule, because I'm most alert in the middle of the night and would rather wake up at sundown and go to bed around dawn than the reverse. I'm an extreme case, but there's pretty continuous variation between "people who wake up at 4AM" and "people who wake up at 4 PM."
And that's a scheduling problem for different people. My circadian rhythm is always a war with my schedule.

The handy aspect of a variable-hours setup is that once you get a schedule, it doesn't change on your rhythm. It's always dark, light, or whatever at a given time. Seasonal changes are slow enough to adjust to, probably without noticing.

Now, there'd be weirdness: polar regions would end up with no day or night hours during parts of the year, because they don't have day or night at those times. People at polar stations would probably switch to some other locations' time standard for their daily schedule, just as they do now.
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Nov 2017, 13:12

nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by nicole » 08 Nov 2017, 13:33

Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:12
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
Sorry, what I mean is that a given activity would take the same amount of time regardless of the season, that is, everything would be in ".beats," right? Work would take 8 .beats, so your work hours would change with the seasons. Working out would take .75 .beats, so your workout schedule would change with the seasons. Commuting and cooking dinner would take 2 .beats, so you would eat dinner at a different time depending on the season. So the idea of "morning" would start at sunrise and the idea of "night" would start at sunset, but that wouldn't actually affect when you were doing any of the stuff you had to do. That is to say, it would be just like now. Am I missing something in the basic concept?
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Nov 2017, 14:01

nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:33
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:12
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
Sorry, what I mean is that a given activity would take the same amount of time regardless of the season, that is, everything would be in ".beats," right? Work would take 8 .beats, so your work hours would change with the seasons.
That'd be a bit more than twelve minutes. You're good if that's your work day. :)
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:33
Working out would take .75 .beats, so your workout schedule would change with the seasons. Commuting and cooking dinner would take 2 .beats, so you would eat dinner at a different time depending on the season. So the idea of "morning" would start at sunrise and the idea of "night" would start at sunset, but that wouldn't actually affect when you were doing any of the stuff you had to do. That is to say, it would be just like now. Am I missing something in the basic concept?
That you wouldn't schedule your work day or any local stuff by .beats any more than most people now schedule their day using UTC.
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by thoreau » 08 Nov 2017, 14:06

Mo wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:26
Also, traveling becomes more difficult. When you land from a plane, they tell you the local time, so you can use your regular context like you wake up around 6 or 7 AM, dinner is around 7 or 8 PM. There will be local cultural differences (like Spaniards eating dinner later), but for the most part it makes adjusting to a new time zone easier.
Exactly. Right now, getting off the plane and hearing "Welcome to [city] where the local time is noon" conveys a huge amount of information. No, not everything. Yes, there are people who eschew our yellow sun and long to return to their home world, but still. Knowing that the local time is noon conveys a considerable amount of information for a traveler.

If we did away with time zones they'd say "Welcome to [city]; currently we are in the [insert term here] period of the day." Which would be remarkably similar to saying that it's noon. So I'm left wondering why we should do away with a convention that conveys substantial information so that we can replace it with some other convention that takes some getting used to but conveys about the same amount.

Frankly, my take on this is a lot like my take on how anarcho-capitalists swear that consortia of security companies with common protocols are totally different from minarchist federal states, because the security companies have letterhead that says "Corporation" rather than "Government."
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
--Shem

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Jadagul
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Jadagul » 08 Nov 2017, 14:10

nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:33
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:12
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
Sorry, what I mean is that a given activity would take the same amount of time regardless of the season, that is, everything would be in ".beats," right? Work would take 8 .beats, so your work hours would change with the seasons. Working out would take .75 .beats, so your workout schedule would change with the seasons. Commuting and cooking dinner would take 2 .beats, so you would eat dinner at a different time depending on the season. So the idea of "morning" would start at sunrise and the idea of "night" would start at sunset, but that wouldn't actually affect when you were doing any of the stuff you had to do. That is to say, it would be just like now. Am I missing something in the basic concept?
I believe Eric is suggesting that your work day would be shorter in the winter than it is in the summer.

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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Nov 2017, 14:55

Jadagul wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 14:10
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:33
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:12
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
Sorry, what I mean is that a given activity would take the same amount of time regardless of the season, that is, everything would be in ".beats," right? Work would take 8 .beats, so your work hours would change with the seasons. Working out would take .75 .beats, so your workout schedule would change with the seasons. Commuting and cooking dinner would take 2 .beats, so you would eat dinner at a different time depending on the season. So the idea of "morning" would start at sunrise and the idea of "night" would start at sunset, but that wouldn't actually affect when you were doing any of the stuff you had to do. That is to say, it would be just like now. Am I missing something in the basic concept?
I believe Eric is suggesting that your work day would be shorter in the winter than it is in the summer.
Yes. Also by latitude. Just one more vast, sweeping change.

People would scarcely notice, and it would keep the Nordic countries from being too successful and taking over the world. At least in the winter - we're ready for them in the summer.
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nicole
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by nicole » 08 Nov 2017, 15:15

Jadagul wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 14:10
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:33
Eric the .5b wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 13:12
nicole wrote:
08 Nov 2017, 09:38
What I don't understand about the variable-hour thing is...how many of the activities you do on an average day can vary in the amount of time they take? Like...none of them...
So? It's not like activities line up with fixed hours, either.
Sorry, what I mean is that a given activity would take the same amount of time regardless of the season, that is, everything would be in ".beats," right? Work would take 8 .beats, so your work hours would change with the seasons. Working out would take .75 .beats, so your workout schedule would change with the seasons. Commuting and cooking dinner would take 2 .beats, so you would eat dinner at a different time depending on the season. So the idea of "morning" would start at sunrise and the idea of "night" would start at sunset, but that wouldn't actually affect when you were doing any of the stuff you had to do. That is to say, it would be just like now. Am I missing something in the basic concept?
I believe Eric is suggesting that your work day would be shorter in the winter than it is in the summer.
Okay. Well, even assuming my boss was cool with that, like I said, every other thing would still take a fixed amount of time regardless of season.
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"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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Mo
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Mo » 08 Nov 2017, 15:16

That pretty much goes against all of human cultural norms. There's a reason why vacations are more frequently taken in the summer and things like summer Fridays are a thing.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Jadagul
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Re: DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TWICE ANNUAL GRIPE THREAD

Post by Jadagul » 08 Nov 2017, 15:29

Under this system, everyone takes more vacations in the summer, because an hour of vacation time in the summer goes further than an hour in the winter!

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