heroes of the day

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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 13 Sep 2012, 22:52

Isaac Bartram wrote:
Shem wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Umm, this is sooooooooooo not safe for work.

NSFW!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one ... age,29553/
Until somebody in India riots over it. Just wait.
See my comment elsewhere where I referred to the interview the day after 9/11 with the Indian professor who said that if something like the Twin Towers ahd happened in India ten thousand Muslims would have been massacred within twenty-four hours.
Although as I recall based on my extensive research (watching Gandhi), Muslims and Hindus have been at each other's throats since like forever on the subcontinent.

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Isaac Bartram » 13 Sep 2012, 23:01

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
Isaac Bartram wrote:
Shem wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Umm, this is sooooooooooo not safe for work.

NSFW!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one ... age,29553/
Until somebody in India riots over it. Just wait.
See my comment elsewhere where I referred to the interview the day after 9/11 with the Indian professor who said that if something like the Twin Towers ahd happened in India ten thousand Muslims would have been massacred within twenty-four hours.
Although as I recall based on my extensive research (watching Gandhi), Muslims and Hindus have been at each other's throats since like forever on the subcontinent.
And based on news reports well within our (yours and mine, that is) lifetimes, they continue that tradition.

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Isaac Bartram » 13 Sep 2012, 23:15

fyodor wrote:
thoreau wrote:Muslims overseas apparently believe that there are vast numbers of Americans who saw this movie.

Americans apparently believe (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) that the entire Muslim world is ablaze with outrage over this movie.

What if the protesters are a miniscule minority and both sides are reacting to incorrect media reports?
A miniscule minority of a large population can cause quite a riot. Americans who think "the entire Muslim world is ablaze" aren't thinking it through. Still, hundreds of people rioting at a foreign embassy over a religious insult is not something that happens in the West, so it's not like there's nothing to see here, either. What I'm saying is that the reports may be entirely accurate - and deserving of the reportage - but people here may have an exaggerated impression anyway, just because of the way stuff gets reported plus lazy thinking. One can see an overlap between that wrong impression and the wrong impression about the widespread viewership of the movie, but there's a big difference too in that the former is based (presumably) on at least mostly truthful reporting, whereas the latter is based really on nothing even resembling the truth. It's a total misrepresentation. (Does anyone know where the rumor started?)

I should add that I've heard reports of security apparatus not only allowing the riots but assisting. So there's that, too. And per what Isaac describes, one gets the feeling the rioters have the support of the populace, even if only a very small fraction are actually rioting (and it should be stressed that we really don't know if the killers of the Libyan ambassador had anything to do with the anti-insult rioters, and there was a public showing of grief about that as well, so I don't include that killing in all of this).
Fyodor, from the reports that I have seen the people who killed ambassador Christopher Stevens were extremists who used the unrest around the demonstration to launch a violent attack to serve their own agenda. I'm not sure if they were aware if Stevens was among the people they targeted.

At this point I have no reason to believe that the original demonstrators had any violent or homicidal motives. They were just pure and simple offended and angry about the insult to their prophet. From all reports, Chris Stevens was extremely popular among the ordinary citizens of Benghazi and they are sincerely mourning his death. They just can't understand why the government he represented hasn't arrested and punished the person who made this offensive film.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Eric the .5b » 13 Sep 2012, 23:17

Isaac Bartram wrote:See my comment elsewhere where I referred to the interview the day after 9/11 with the Indian professor who said that if something like the Twin Towers ahd happened in India ten thousand Muslims would have been massacred within twenty-four hours.
Cultural differences. We take longer, but act bigger.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by lunchstealer » 13 Sep 2012, 23:39

fyodor wrote:
thoreau wrote:Muslims overseas apparently believe that there are vast numbers of Americans who saw this movie.

Americans apparently believe (perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) that the entire Muslim world is ablaze with outrage over this movie.

What if the protesters are a miniscule minority and both sides are reacting to incorrect media reports?
A miniscule minority of a large population can cause quite a riot. Americans who think "the entire Muslim world is ablaze" aren't thinking it through. Still, hundreds of people rioting at a foreign embassy over a religious insult is not something that happens in the West, so it's not like there's nothing to see here, either.
Yeah, North America isn't usually ablaze during a G7 or WTO summit, either.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Jadagul » 14 Sep 2012, 01:42

Isaac Bartram wrote:Jay, almost every time I deal I talk with Canadian or Australian friends I realize how uniquely different the US is in its approach to freedom of speech.

I raised the point to illustrate just how deep the problem we're dealing with is.
Exactly. Like, there's this sense in America that Europe, in particular, is "more liberal" than we are. But that's actually total nonsense. It's systematically more liberal on some issues (welfare, labor laws, climate change, and generally personal sexual morality); varies from much more liberal to much more conservative on some issues (gender equality, and I'd argue health care, especially after PPACA); and systematically more conservative on yet others (probably immigration, free speech, depending on your definition of "conservative", smoking, and vegetarianism--one of my favorite "what the hell" stories from my time at Cambridge is the dining hall's impressively pathetic attempt to celebrate National Vegetarianism Week). And we haven't even gotten into issues where there's a systematic difference that doesn't track the left/right split very well (no one in the US favors industry nationalization in the way the Europeans do it; their takes on social class, at least in some countries, don't really map onto anything in the US; and I'm going to argue that the whole "state-established church" thing also doesn't really map well onto any US political conflicts).

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Isaac Bartram » 14 Sep 2012, 01:49

Jadagul wrote:
Isaac Bartram wrote:Jay, almost every time I deal I talk with Canadian or Australian friends I realize how uniquely different the US is in its approach to freedom of speech.

I raised the point to illustrate just how deep the problem we're dealing with is.
Exactly. Like, there's this sense in America that Europe, in particular, is "more liberal" than we are. But that's actually total nonsense. It's systematically more liberal on some issues (welfare, labor laws, climate change, and generally personal sexual morality); varies from much more liberal to much more conservative on some issues (gender equality, and I'd argue health care, especially after PPACA); and systematically more conservative on yet others (probably immigration, free speech, depending on your definition of "conservative", smoking, and vegetarianism--one of my favorite "what the hell" stories from my time at Cambridge is the dining hall's impressively pathetic attempt to celebrate National Vegetarianism Week). And we haven't even gotten into issues where there's a systematic difference that doesn't track the left/right split very well (no one in the US favors industry nationalization in the way the Europeans do it; their takes on social class, at least in some countries, don't really map onto anything in the US; and I'm going to argue that the whole "state-established church" thing also doesn't really map well onto any US political conflicts).
Don't get me started.

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Mo
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 14 Sep 2012, 09:35

Looks like I'm not the only one with the suspicions about Egypt as well.
El Amrani reports that "the initial Egyptian protests were in good part due to a call by a small Salafi group... and timed for the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks."
There are people that are rabble rousers and want to have violent protesters. Even if this movie didn't exist, they'd make some shit up or find some obscure thing to use as a causus belli.
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Aresen
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Aresen » 14 Sep 2012, 09:49

Mo wrote:Looks like I'm not the only one with the suspicions about Egypt as well.
El Amrani reports that "the initial Egyptian protests were in good part due to a call by a small Salafi group... and timed for the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks."
There are people that are rabble rousers and want to have violent protesters. Even if this movie didn't exist, they'd make some shit up or find some obscure thing to use as a causus belli.
You mean, kinda like the GOP?
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Mo
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 14 Sep 2012, 09:59

Aresen wrote:
Mo wrote:Looks like I'm not the only one with the suspicions about Egypt as well.
El Amrani reports that "the initial Egyptian protests were in good part due to a call by a small Salafi group... and timed for the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks."
There are people that are rabble rousers and want to have violent protesters. Even if this movie didn't exist, they'd make some shit up or find some obscure thing to use as a causus belli.
You mean, kinda like the GOP?
Or DNC.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 14 Sep 2012, 17:53

Just got off the phone with Mo Momma. Apparently, the chaos is limited to the embassy area and the general populace is annoyed disgusted. The theorized consensus is that these dudes were goons hired* by Salafists/Mubarak loyalists/etc trying to discredit the regime. Interesting, potentially related side note. Apparently, last week a bunch of international business big wigs** came to Egypt for discussions on domestic investment, expansion of their business in the country and they were given assurances that things were calm, it's safe, there's not much to worry about.

* No one seems to agree with the protest. Apparently even the religious extremist on the street said, in essence, "This is wrong what they're doing. The right thing to do is to find the guy that made the movie and kill him." That is not the majority or even plurality POV, but the extremist POV.
** Eg. Citibank execs and the like
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by dbcooper » 14 Sep 2012, 18:02

Violent protests targeting Britain, Germany, and the UN ...
At least six killed in regional protests over anti-Islamic video

At least six people were reported to have been killed Friday across the Middle East and Africa in protests over the anti-Islamic video that led to a deadly attack on a U.S. consulate in Libya this week.

The unrest was centered mainly on U.S. embassies, but other targets also came under attack, including embassies and other outposts of Britain, Germany and the U.N.

Three people were reported to have been killed Friday afternoon in a violent protest near the U.S. Embassy in Khartoum, the capital of Sudan, the Arabic news service al-Arabiya reported, citing witneses and journalists on the scene.

An embassy spokesman said guards on the roof fired warning shots after hundreds of protesters breached the embassy's security perimeter and some tried to climb over the wall.

No members of the embassy staff were injured, the spokesman said.

The protesters moved to the U.S. compound after violent rallies outside the German and British embassies, which are near each other. Witnesses and police said as many as 5,000 protesters surrounding the two compounds were dispersed when police opened fire with tear-gas canisters. There were no immediate reports of casualties.

In Tunisia, two people — at least one of them a protester — were killed and 29 others were injured outside the U.S. Embassy in Tunis, the Health Ministry said. At least two of the injured were in critical condition, the ministry reported, according to the official Tunisian news agency, TAP.

The protesters gathered at the embassy after earlier having set fire to the American School, which was closed Friday, the embassy said in a statement. Both the school and the embassy sustained "severe property damage," it said.

And in Lebanon, at least one person was killed and 25 others were wounded in protests in Tripoli timed to coincide with the arrival of Pope Benedict XVI on a three-day visit, Lebanese officials said. Hundreds of people set a KFC and Hardee's restaurant on fire, witnesses said.

Demonstrations continued to rage across the region Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, in protest of publication on YouTube of the trailer for "Innocence of Muslims," an unreleased U.S.-made movie that depicts the Prophet Muhammad as a womanizer and a gay child abuser.

Any depiction of Muhammad — favorable or not — is considered blasphemy in most of the Muslim world; the sheer grotesqueness of "Innocence of Muslims" made it a particular provocation.

Four Americans, including Ambassador Christopher Stevens, were killed Tuesday night in two attacks on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya. President Barack Obama, Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton attended the return of the remains of the four Americans at Joint Base Andrews in suburban Maryland on Friday afternoon.

Members of the Senate Armed Services Committee who were briefed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said Friday that it seemed clear that the Libya attacks were planned and premeditated. They cited the weapons carried by the attackers as the primary evidence.

"From all that I've heard," the attacks Tuesday night "were not just some coincidental protest of this film, this anti-Muslim film," said Sen. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn. "They were a well-planned and professional terrorist attack against the U.S. consulate in Benghazi."

In addition to Sudan, Tunisia and Lebanon, demonstrations Friday spanned numerous countries across the Middle East and northern Africa:

• Some of the worst violence was in Egypt, where stones were hurled at police near the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, who responded with tear gas. The Muslim Brotherhood said on Twitter that it was canceling its call for nationwide protests about the film. However, it said it would still be present in Cairo's central Tahrir Square "for a symbolic protest against the movie."

• U.N. multinational peacekeeping observers in the Sinai Peninsula were attacked by demonstrators protesting the movie, Israeli TV reported. Three peacekeepers from Colombia were injured in what appeared to be a coordinated attack using handheld explosive devices and automatic weapons, a spokesman told NBC News.

• About 50 U.S. Marines have been sent to Yemen to provide additional security in the aftermath of Thursday's attack on the U.S. Embassy in Sanaa, Defense Department officials told NBC News. The Marines, part of a Fleet Anti-Terror Security Team, are an identical unit to the one sent to Libya earlier this week.

• A large demonstration against the Muhammad movie broke out at BMCI, a bank in Nouakchott, Mauritania, the U.S. Embassy said. It urged all U.S. citizens to avoid the areas around the bank and the Embassy.

• The UN multinational peacekeeping observer mission in the Sinai Peninsula was attacked Friday. Four people, believed to be peacekeepers from Colombia, were reported to have been injured. The multinational force observes the compliance of the Camp David peace treaty between Egypt and Israel.

• In Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, about 200 protesters vented their anger by chanting "death to Jews!" and "death to America!" in a largely peaceful protest outside the heavily guarded U.S. Embassy in Jakarta.

• Hundreds of protesters gathered outside the U.S. Embassy in Amman, Jordan, chanting for jihad and praising the late al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and the killers of Stevens in Libya.

• In Pakistan, protests cropped up in major cities such as Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad, but Friday prayers seemed to have passed without major incidents of violence, NBC News reported.

• About 200 demonstrators gathered Friday outside the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait and hoisted banners.

• In Bangladesh, Islamists tried to march on the U.S. Embassy in Dhaka, and Iranian students protested in Tehran.

• In Nigeria, where the radical Islamist sect Boko Haram has killed hundreds of people this year in an insurgency, the government put police on alert and stepped up security around foreign missions.

• Protesters in Afghanistan set fire to an effigy of Obama and burned a U.S. flag after Friday prayers in the eastern province of Nangarhar.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by dbcooper » 14 Sep 2012, 18:50

Mo wrote:Looks like I'm not the only one with the suspicions about Egypt as well.
El Amrani reports that "the initial Egyptian protests were in good part due to a call by a small Salafi group... and timed for the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks."
There are people that are rabble rousers and want to have violent protesters. Even if this movie didn't exist, they'd make some shit up or find some obscure thing to use as a causus belli.
Yeah. This is from the Weekly Standard, but Zawahiri's brother has been claiming responsibility.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/zaw ... 52217.html
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 08 Oct 2012, 09:48

The Obama administration is rightly getting hammered over pulling security out of Libya. However, this also demonstrates why the ratchet effect exists. No politician will ever cut the TSA or our military budget if they know they'll get hammered by it if something bad happens (which something, inevitably will).
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fyodor
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by fyodor » 08 Oct 2012, 13:54

Mo wrote:The Obama administration is rightly getting hammered over pulling security out of Libya. However, this also demonstrates why the ratchet effect exists. No politician will ever cut the TSA or our military budget if they know they'll get hammered by it if something bad happens (which something, inevitably will).
Well y'know, it occurs to me that the very fact that you think the Obama administration is getting hammered "rightly" would seem to suggest there's some sort of identifiable and substantive difference between what they did and actions that could well be justified for various reasons in the areas of cutting the military budget or curtailing (which I think would be more to the point) the TSA.

That said, I naturally still get your drift.

The upshot would seem to be that any increases or institutions of new manifestations of the security apparatus are not just slippery slopes to permanent changes but practically guarantees.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Isaac Bartram » 09 Oct 2012, 22:41

fyodor wrote:
Mo wrote:The Obama administration is rightly getting hammered over pulling security out of Libya. However, this also demonstrates why the ratchet effect exists. No politician will ever cut the TSA or our military budget if they know they'll get hammered by it if something bad happens (which something, inevitably will).
Well y'know, it occurs to me that the very fact that you think the Obama administration is getting hammered "rightly" would seem to suggest there's some sort of identifiable and substantive difference between what they did and actions that could well be justified for various reasons in the areas of cutting the military budget or curtailing (which I think would be more to the point) the TSA.

That said, I naturally still get your drift.

The upshot would seem to be that any increases or institutions of new manifestations of the security apparatus are not just slippery slopes to permanent changes but practically guarantees.
Of course, cutting the security at the Benghazi Consulate would not have had anywhere near the impact it did if the ambassador had not gone to Benghazi on a feelgood mission ( to open a new US/Harvard Med School-backed hospital wing) with a minimum security detail.

One of the questions uppermost in my mind is why "we" needed a consulate in Benghazi in the first place?

The other question uppermost in my mind, based on commentary at H&R and various news reports, is why are people so ignorant that they do not know the difference between an Embassy and a Consulate?

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 09 Oct 2012, 22:48

Isaac Bartram wrote:The other question uppermost in my mind, based on commentary at H&R and various news reports, is why are people so ignorant that they do not know the difference between an Embassy and a Consulate?
This. The primary use of a consulate is for citizens abroad to get help and the local citizenry to get visas. You typically don't need security because nobody gives two shits about the Consul General.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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thoreau
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by thoreau » 09 Oct 2012, 22:53

I thought that Consulates were still, unofficially, places for espionage? Also, I know that Consuls are generally concerned more with services than diplomacy, but I thought that they might still, if the need arose or their connections were useful, talk to people (officially or unofficially) that their government wants to talk to.

Anyway, Benghazi was the center of the opposition during the uprising, so I assume that there may be various people and factions in the city that the US wants to either watch or (quietly) talk to. Any city that was the center of an armed uprising that drew in a certain number of fighters (on both sides) from other countries is probably a place where the US wants to keep an eye out.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Oct 2012, 23:22

Mo wrote:
Isaac Bartram wrote:The other question uppermost in my mind, based on commentary at H&R and various news reports, is why are people so ignorant that they do not know the difference between an Embassy and a Consulate?
This. The primary use of a consulate is for citizens abroad to get help and the local citizenry to get visas. You typically don't need security because nobody gives two shits about the Consul General.
I imagine the short answer is that you only know things you have a reason to know. Quite a few people have never left the country and have no desire to, so the difference between a consulate and an embassy is no more crucial information to them than the difference between a marsupial and a monotreme. The more pointed question might be why people feel the need to opine about things they don't really understand. I imagine the answer to that is the lack of negative consequences for doing so.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Shem » 10 Oct 2012, 01:51

Isaac Bartram wrote:One of the questions uppermost in my mind is why "we" needed a consulate in Benghazi in the first place?
Because, as Thoreau points out, it was the center of the opposition, and as such still sees a lot of traffic from various foreigners moving through to do business with the big wheels in the new government. But even beyond that, it seems reasonable to me that a country the size of Alaska, with a capital that's not centrally located or particularly easy to get to from elsewhere in the country by anything but air might need a couple consulates to ensure that the work gets done.
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thoreau
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by thoreau » 10 Oct 2012, 02:03

I'm pleasantly surprised that my speculations on espionage and diplomacy got Shem's nod.

For those saying that consulates are uninteresting places with minimal security needs: if I were to go to the Chinese consulate for a travel visa, and if I were to mention that I have friends at local aerospace firms, are you saying that the consular staff would have no interest in chatting with me? And if, upon leaving, I took photos of the building across the street, the one with a lot of antennas on the roof and some darkened windows, I wouldn't be approached by a guy with short hair who is dying to know what I am doing with my camera?
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Aresen
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Aresen » 10 Oct 2012, 11:12

A Pakistani girl is a heroine because she wants to go to school.

Yet another demonstration of how Pakistan is a totally fucked nation and why we should have nothing to do with them.
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by JasonL » 10 Oct 2012, 11:23

Aresen wrote:A Pakistani girl is a heroine because she wants to go to school.

Yet another demonstration of how Pakistan is a totally fucked nation and why we should have nothing to do with them.
Yeah, fuck those guys. I thought she was killed?

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Mo
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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 10 Oct 2012, 11:24

Shot, but still alive.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: heroes of the day

Post by Mo » 21 Oct 2012, 18:56

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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