Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

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Jadagul
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jadagul » 09 Mar 2019, 04:25

That depends somewhat on what the charges are.

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Shem
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Shem » 09 Mar 2019, 09:20

thoreau wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 02:58
Like journalists (and unlike spies) Wikileaks publicizes what it receives.
Well, unless they don't. At this late date in history, WikiLeaks is about as much a journalism outfit as RT.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 09 Mar 2019, 10:48

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 02:08
I mean obviously the American legal system is like 99.94% perfect, so it's only right and just to put a person in a cage for saying/doing literally nothing. It's just a shame that no one ever had the idea to prohibit secret trials or punishing people who refused to testify. Oh well I guess.
Yeah, the Grand Jury is towards the top of the list of all the things fucked up about our judicial system. I don't have any suggestions about how to fix it either. There's lots of ideas, but I'm not convinced what you wind up with is actually better. The Seventh Amendment is a not insignificant stumbling block to this libertarian.
thoreau wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 02:58
The secrecy of the grand jury process bothers me far less than the fact that Wikileaks is a journalism outfit. An outfit with an agenda, to be sure, but the same could be said of Mother Jones, Reason, or National Review. Nonetheless, the mission of Wikileaks is to make information public, which is fundamentally different from espionage. Spies try to keep what they know secret, while journalists try to inform the public of what they know. Wikileaks may receive its information from some pretty shady people, but so do a lot of journalists.

Like journalists (and unlike spies) Wikileaks publicizes what it receives. Indeed, to the extent that Wikileaks can be credibly accused of harming anyone's interests, it's by making information public, not by passing information in secret. So, while I'm hardly a fan of certain things done by Wikileaks, the US government has no business going after them.

The only secrets that journalists keep are (1) the identities of sources who provided info on condition of anonymity and (2) stories that did not stand up to vetting. The ultimate fruits of a grand jury process (indictments) go public if a case is made, and the fruits of a journalist's work go public if the story passes vetting. Until that process is complete, there are secrets. So I don't object to grand juries working in secret, but I do object to charges against Wikileaks being pursued in the first place.
People, including journalists, should have the right to publish true things no matter the source or consequence to "National Security". I thought we already established that with the Pentagon Papers, but what do I know.
OTOH I don't think people, including journalists, have a right to keep their sources secret.
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Kolohe
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Kolohe » 09 Mar 2019, 11:44

I can't believe you people are still staning some people and orgs.
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Kolohe
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Kolohe » 09 Mar 2019, 11:45

Thanks, Obama.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Mo » 09 Mar 2019, 11:52

Spies do propaganda do. It’s not all cloak and dagger stuff. This doesn’t mean that WikiLeaks isn’t protected by 1A at the moment. But one can make a credible case that they act more like a foreign propaganda arm than as a journalistic outfit.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 09 Mar 2019, 11:52

Shem wrote:
thoreau wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 02:58
Like journalists (and unlike spies) Wikileaks publicizes what it receives.
Well, unless they don't. At this late date in history, WikiLeaks is about as much a journalism outfit as RT.
I don't like RT, and I have no illusions about them, but I also don't see anything good coming from the government going after them.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Mar 2019, 15:03

You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 09 Mar 2019, 15:09

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Yeah so? If you are a witness to a crime you can be compelled to testify, or be held in contempt. I'm good with that.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Shem » 09 Mar 2019, 17:15

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Mar 2019, 18:32

Wasn't wikileaks proven to be a russian asset? Am I misremembering? No. No I won't google. I'm busy doing homework and just hopping over here for a break. Next thing I know, I'll be stuck here for the rest of the day.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 09 Mar 2019, 19:00

Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 18:32
Wasn't wikileaks proven to be a russian asset?
I don't think so. But I don't care if they are.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Shem » 09 Mar 2019, 19:14

Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 18:32
Wasn't wikileaks proven to be a russian asset? Am I misremembering? No. No I won't google. I'm busy doing homework and just hopping over here for a break. Next thing I know, I'll be stuck here for the rest of the day.
Nobody ever clicks my links.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Mar 2019, 19:26

Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 19:14
Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 18:32
Wasn't wikileaks proven to be a russian asset? Am I misremembering? No. No I won't google. I'm busy doing homework and just hopping over here for a break. Next thing I know, I'll be stuck here for the rest of the day.
Nobody ever clicks my links.
I honestly didn't see that.
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Jadagul
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jadagul » 09 Mar 2019, 20:27

At more length: I've been listening lately to the National Security Law Podcast, which is pretty great. And listening to Steve Vladeck yell about the shitty due process we give to Gitmo prisoners is great.

Their assessment here is that Wikileaks publishing leaks that it received is pretty clearly legal under the way we've been handling this for forty years. But also, it wouldn't be hard to prove they did that, so it's pretty likely that this isn't about building a case that they published leaks.

On the other hand, if they participated in the hacking or other activities like that, they could easily have done something very illegal. So it seems more likely that the government is seeing if it can build a case that Wikileaks did actual computer crimes.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 10 Mar 2019, 14:26

Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 17:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over jailing someone for nonviolent victimless actions because it's traditional after all.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 10 Mar 2019, 14:28

Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:26
Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 17:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over jailing someone for nonviolent victimless actions because it's traditional after all.
Abetting criminals is not a victimless act.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 10 Mar 2019, 14:38

Warren wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:28
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:26
Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 17:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over jailing someone for nonviolent victimless actions because it's traditional after all.
Abetting criminals is not a victimless act.
It seems like a stretch to file declining to participate in a trial under 'abetting criminals'.
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"Somali pirates are beholden to their hostages in a way that the USG is not." ~Dangerman

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 10 Mar 2019, 14:56

Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:38
Warren wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:28
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:26
Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 17:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over jailing someone for nonviolent victimless actions because it's traditional after all.
Abetting criminals is not a victimless act.
It seems like a stretch to file declining to participate in a trial under 'abetting criminals'.
Oh Really???
How about this. You are an innocent bystander that witnesses a cop shoot an unarmed man, and then plant a gun on him. I'm also a witness but I'm the victim's brother. Should I, or shouldn't I, have the power to subpoena you.
Are you really saying that no witness needs answer any questions in court. I mean that's... I can't even.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Mar 2019, 17:14

Warren wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:56
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:38
Warren wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:28
Hugh Akston wrote:
10 Mar 2019, 14:26
Shem wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 17:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 15:03
You guys they put someone in jail for not testifying in court.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over literally centuries of Anglo-American law.
Guess some of us have trouble ginning up too much outrage over jailing someone for nonviolent victimless actions because it's traditional after all.
Abetting criminals is not a victimless act.
It seems like a stretch to file declining to participate in a trial under 'abetting criminals'.
Oh Really???
How about this. You are an innocent bystander that witnesses a cop shoot an unarmed man, and then plant a gun on him. I'm also a witness but I'm the victim's brother. Should I, or shouldn't I, have the power to subpoena you.
Are you really saying that no witness needs answer any questions in court. I mean that's... I can't even.
It is possible for people do things without being coerced by the loving chokehold of the State. Even when they are reluctant to act in certain ways initially, they can be convinced to do so by moral suasion or compensation. And if someone really really seriously definitely doesn't want to testify, the proper response is not to lock them in a cage, but rather to shrug your shoulders and say "well that's your choice, but it's okay because eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable anyway.

It's possible, however unlikely, that if we made an effort to respect human action, we might live in a society where choking a motherfucker out is not the default response to a dispute.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 11 Mar 2019, 20:19

Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 17:14
It's possible, however unlikely, that if we made an effort to respect human action, we might live in a society where choking a motherfucker out is not the default response to a dispute.
Jesus Hugh. That's a hell of a lot of wishful thinking packed into one sentence.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Mar 2019, 20:59

Warren wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 20:19
Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 17:14
It's possible, however unlikely, that if we made an effort to respect human action, we might live in a society where choking a motherfucker out is not the default response to a dispute.
Jesus Hugh. That's a hell of a lot of wishful thinking packed into one sentence.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
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Jennifer
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jennifer » 11 Apr 2019, 15:17

Ecuador rescinded its asylum, and Assange has been arrested.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 11 Apr 2019, 15:54

So a guy who got the fruits of Russian hacking and communicated with Trump associates is in jail.

Mr. Stark, I'm not feeling so good...

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 11 Apr 2019, 15:54

Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 20:59
Warren wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 20:19
Hugh Akston wrote:
11 Mar 2019, 17:14
It's possible, however unlikely, that if we made an effort to respect human action, we might live in a society where choking a motherfucker out is not the default response to a dispute.
Jesus Hugh. That's a hell of a lot of wishful thinking packed into one sentence.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
Yeah, you are. The other guy got shot leaving his apartment building.

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