Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Jan 2017, 16:59

That'll increase Obama's GPA slightly.
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Jennifer
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jennifer » 17 Jan 2017, 17:00

From what I read elsewhere, Manning is not to be released until May. My worry is that President Trump will turn around and un-commute the sentence. I wish Obama had instead issued the commutation effective immediately -- or at least, effective while he is still the POTUS.
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Mo
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Mo » 17 Jan 2017, 17:15

Looks like their partisans are saying it was a commutation, not a pardon, so doesn't count.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 17 Jan 2017, 17:17

I don't actually see Manning the same way as I do Snowden. Her pardon is kind of whatever. It is my understanding that Snowden did much more in the way of handing over secrets to Russia than has been commonly discussed, but he also specifically informed american citizens about the extent of surveillance against them, and that is really important. Manning's bit was ... not that important. I think the case has more appeal to people who think there should be no secrets, which is fine but not a position I hold.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 17 Jan 2017, 17:19

Jennifer wrote:From what I read elsewhere, Manning is not to be released until May. My worry is that President Trump will turn around and un-commute the sentence. I wish Obama had instead issued the commutation effective immediately -- or at least, effective while he is still the POTUS.
I don't think commutations are reversible.

(Insert math pun here.)
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Jan 2017, 17:21

Manning and Snowden aren't the same thing. Snowden struck an actual blow, while Manning just sort of embarrassed some diplomats, which I agree is whatever. So that raises the question of why bury her in Leavenworth for 35 years?
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jennifer » 17 Jan 2017, 17:23

Hugh Akston wrote:Manning and Snowden aren't the same thing. Snowden struck an actual blow, while Manning just sort of embarrassed some diplomats, which I agree is whatever. So that raises the question of why bury her in Leavenworth for 35 years?
Pour encourager les autres.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by tr0g » 17 Jan 2017, 17:48

Jennifer wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:Manning and Snowden aren't the same thing. Snowden struck an actual blow, while Manning just sort of embarrassed some diplomats, which I agree is whatever. So that raises the question of why bury her in Leavenworth for 35 years?
Pour encourager les autres.
Can't have the peons thinking they can treat classified information with the same recklessness and lack of care as their betters. I mean, nothing would be secret if the peons acted like flag officers and politicians!
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 17 Jan 2017, 17:49

I find myself not really caring.

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 17 Jan 2017, 17:50

They should send her on a tour of Southeastern universities so the state legislators could get vaors about which bathroom she uses.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Warren » 17 Jan 2017, 19:50

JasonL wrote:I don't actually see Manning the same way as I do Snowden. Her pardon is kind of whatever. It is my understanding that Snowden did much more in the way of handing over secrets to Russia than has been commonly discussed, but he also specifically informed american citizens about the extent of surveillance against them, and that is really important. Manning's bit was ... not that important. I think the case has more appeal to people who think there should be no secrets, which is fine but not a position I hold.
The two are very different. Manning needs to be set free because what was done to hir in the first weeks of captivity earns a pass for all crimes committed.

Manning is a troubled soul and hir motivations for doing what she did are not entirely clear. And as you say, the benefits of hir having done it are marginal.

Snowden is a brilliant individual that knew exactly what he was doing, why he had to do it that way, and what the consequences would be. The revelations were staggering. Unfortunately the outrage machine only works for fired chicken and golden showers, so no one was held accountable for the massive unconstitutional dark state. But they did promise not to do it again. I guess that's something (just kidding).
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Kolohe » 17 Jan 2017, 20:00

Kolohe wrote: For people like H. Clinton, well, you know, I can empathize that she's taking this kinda personally..
http://grylliade.org/viewtopic.php?p=27077#p27077
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Mo » 17 Jan 2017, 22:17

Image

So this is what a complete lack of self-awareness looks like.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Eric the .5b » 17 Jan 2017, 22:18

Hugh Akston wrote:That'll increase Obama's GPA slightly.
Meh. He sacrificed the enjoyment of knowing Chelsea Manning was in a supermax cell for making him look bad, but he only did that to annoy Republicans and polish his "legacy". It still leaves Obama as a loathsome toad of a human being.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 17 Jan 2017, 22:19

Does she still technically count as a journalist, or is she a government spokeswoman?
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 17 Jan 2017, 23:48

Eric the .5b wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:That'll increase Obama's GPA slightly.
Meh. He sacrificed the enjoyment of knowing Chelsea Manning was in a supermax cell for making him look bad, but he only did that to annoy Republicans and polish his "legacy". It still leaves Obama as a loathsome toad of a human being.
That's why I said slightly. Obama's motives and timing are transparently reprehensible, but otoh Manning doesn't have to rot in Leavenworth for the rest of her life.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Eric the .5b » 18 Jan 2017, 20:16

Hugh Akston wrote:
Eric the .5b wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:That'll increase Obama's GPA slightly.
Meh. He sacrificed the enjoyment of knowing Chelsea Manning was in a supermax cell for making him look bad, but he only did that to annoy Republicans and polish his "legacy". It still leaves Obama as a loathsome toad of a human being.
That's why I said slightly. Obama's motives and timing are transparently reprehensible, but otoh Manning doesn't have to rot in Leavenworth for the rest of her life.
Ah, but I round down.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Eric the .5b » 18 Jan 2017, 20:18

JasonL wrote:I don't actually see Manning the same way as I do Snowden. Her pardon is kind of whatever. It is my understanding that Snowden did much more in the way of handing over secrets to Russia than has been commonly discussed
What is the basis of this understanding?

Over on the Blue side of the aisle, I see this thrown out now and again by bitter Obama-lovers, but none of them will give me more than a, "Fuck you, that's why!" when anyone asks for a cite.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 19 Jan 2017, 10:30

I have a friend whose former job required apparently much damage control after the event. His job history looks somewhat like kolohe's. Very similar in fact as I understand things. His comments made me double take because he's not That Military Guy. No specifics, but he did say the public view is not fully informed.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 19 Jan 2017, 10:42

JasonL wrote:I have a friend whose former job required apparently much damage control after the event. His job history looks somewhat like kolohe's. Very similar in fact as I understand things. His comments made me double take because he's not That Military Guy. No specifics, but he did say the public view is not fully informed.
I seem to recall some surveillance state higherups saying the same thing about the Snowden revelations. "You would feel differently if you knew what we know". Yeah well give us your facts and let us decide for ourselves.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 19 Jan 2017, 11:12

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:I have a friend whose former job required apparently much damage control after the event. His job history looks somewhat like kolohe's. Very similar in fact as I understand things. His comments made me double take because he's not That Military Guy. No specifics, but he did say the public view is not fully informed.
I seem to recall some surveillance state higherups saying the same thing about the Snowden revelations. "You would feel differently if you knew what we know". Yeah well give us your facts and let us decide for ourselves.
This was referring to Snowden not Manning.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 19 Jan 2017, 11:38

JasonL wrote:
Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:I have a friend whose former job required apparently much damage control after the event. His job history looks somewhat like kolohe's. Very similar in fact as I understand things. His comments made me double take because he's not That Military Guy. No specifics, but he did say the public view is not fully informed.
I seem to recall some surveillance state higherups saying the same thing about the Snowden revelations. "You would feel differently if you knew what we know". Yeah well give us your facts and let us decide for ourselves.
This was referring to Snowden not Manning.
Either way. If you withhold information from people you don't really get to complain that they are making uninformed judgements about you. And when you work for an agency whose mandate involves lying, surveillance, and taking information that doesn't belong to you, it should come as no surprise when people don't believe that you are on the side of the angels.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Jan 2017, 13:26

We've not only seen a lot of coached responses to leaks, we know the military is full of rumor-passing. One person "just knowing" something everyone in the loop is inclined to believe becomes the hot word passed around. We also know of professions that keep a tight line with what they say to outsiders: see "my cop friend who suddenly gets real hardline when I mention that news story".

No one is willing to publicly claim actual, direct knowledge of these things, even anonymously. This, during an administration that made giving anonymous statements that support the president's stances an art form.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Mar 2019, 02:08

The System works really, really well:
Chelsea Manning, the former Army private, is back in U.S. federal custody, jailed over her refusal to testify before a grand jury in a case involving WikiLeaks and Julian Assange.

Judge Claude Hilton of the U.S. District Court in Eastern Virginia ordered Manning to jail Friday "after a brief hearing in which Manning confirmed she has no intention of testifying," the Associated Press reports.

Hilton said Manning must stay in custody until she either changes her mind about testifying or the grand jury finishes its work.
"Manning has said she objects to the secrecy of the grand jury process," the AP reports, "and that she already revealed everything she knows at her court martial."
"All of the substantive questions pertained to my disclosures of information to the public in 2010 — answers I provided in extensive testimony, during my court-martial in 2013," Manning said. "I responded to each question with the following statement: 'I object to the question and refuse to answer on the grounds that the question is in violation of my First, Fourth, and Sixth Amendment, and other statutory rights.' "
I mean obviously the American legal system is like 99.94% perfect, so it's only right and just to put a person in a cage for saying/doing literally nothing. It's just a shame that no one ever had the idea to prohibit secret trials or punishing people who refused to testify. Oh well I guess.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 09 Mar 2019, 02:58

The secrecy of the grand jury process bothers me far less than the fact that Wikileaks is a journalism outfit. An outfit with an agenda, to be sure, but the same could be said of Mother Jones, Reason, or National Review. Nonetheless, the mission of Wikileaks is to make information public, which is fundamentally different from espionage. Spies try to keep what they know secret, while journalists try to inform the public of what they know. Wikileaks may receive its information from some pretty shady people, but so do a lot of journalists.

Like journalists (and unlike spies) Wikileaks publicizes what it receives. Indeed, to the extent that Wikileaks can be credibly accused of harming anyone's interests, it's by making information public, not by passing information in secret. So, while I'm hardly a fan of certain things done by Wikileaks, the US government has no business going after them.

The only secrets that journalists keep are (1) the identities of sources who provided info on condition of anonymity and (2) stories that did not stand up to vetting. The ultimate fruits of a grand jury process (indictments) go public if a case is made, and the fruits of a journalist's work go public if the story passes vetting. Until that process is complete, there are secrets. So I don't object to grand juries working in secret, but I do object to charges against Wikileaks being pursued in the first place.
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