Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

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thoreau
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 30 Jul 2013, 23:36

Mark Kleiman is a Very Serious Person:

http://www.samefacts.com/2013/07/secrec ... g-verdict/

Regarding this part:
Still looking for the Wikileaks exposes of Russian, Chinese, Iranian, or Saudi secrets.
Last I checked, Wikileaks had archives of documents on all of those countries, many of them related to corruption. I'm sure that if a Saudi or Iranian or Russian or Chinese Manning came along, Wikileaks would be all over that.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 30 Jul 2013, 23:42

Bradley Manning didn’t blow a whistle; he merely supplied a core-dump of diplomatic communications, with no assurance about how anti-Semite Julian Assange would handle them
Well I'm convinced.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2013, 09:24

Hugh Akston wrote:
Bradley Manning didn’t blow a whistle; he merely supplied a core-dump of diplomatic communications, with no assurance about how anti-Semite Julian Assange would handle them
Well I'm convinced.
Yep, the proof was in a British tabloid, so it must be true, because it used words and stuff!

I guess Assange must be absolute evil!

Exclaimed!
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by dbcooper » 31 Jul 2013, 11:15

Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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JasonL
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2013, 11:19

dbcooper wrote:Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
db is just haul'n oates for big media.




I'm sorry. For many things.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2013, 11:22

dbcooper wrote:Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
No? It sure looked like one from the absolute minimum level of research I conducted, but I'll take your word, being a silly American and all. I still had trouble finding where they claimed Assange was an anti-semite.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Ayn_Randian » 31 Jul 2013, 11:22

JasonL wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
db is just haul'n oates for big media.




I'm sorry. For many things.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Jul 2013, 11:24

dbcooper wrote:Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
But it is available in Blue, Black or Australian.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by dbcooper » 31 Jul 2013, 11:29

Taktix® wrote:
dbcooper wrote:Private Eye isn't a "tabloid" newspaper.
No? It sure looked like one from the absolute minimum level of research I conducted, but I'll take your word, being a silly American and all. I still had trouble finding where they claimed Assange was an anti-semite.
It's a renowned but cheeky (and frequently satirical) political commentary and humour weekly. It does some investigative journalism, but also enjoys a bit of naughty gossip.

The cover image you posted was them taking the piss out of Murdoch's tabloids.

I don't take it as serious proof that Assange's an anti-semite, but I don't discount their column either.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 31 Jul 2013, 12:04

I was making the point that whether or not Assange is an anti-semite has no bearing on the veracity of his claims. Kleiman is just poisoning the well.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Taktix® » 31 Jul 2013, 12:06

Hugh Akston wrote:I was making the point that whether or not Assange is an anti-semite has no bearing on the veracity of his claims. Kleiman is just poisoning the well.
Oh I fully agree. I just think it must be a pretty resilient well if he has to completely invent the poison...
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 21 Aug 2013, 12:04

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 21 Aug 2013, 12:13

That's ... not really all that impressive. How much is decontextualized and reframed?

Like "State Dept memo: U.S.-backed 2009 coup in Honduras was 'illegal and unconstitutional.'”

That means someone at some point knowing they weren't the final word offered that opinion. It may mean a lot more than that, but it's extracted from context.

Or: "“From hundreds of diplomatic cables, Afghanistan emerges as a looking-glass land where bribery, extortion and embezzlement are the norm and the honest man is a distinct outlier.”

Is that shocking and we needed Manning to confirm this somehow?

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 21 Aug 2013, 12:22

JasonL wrote:That's ... not really all that impressive. How much is decontextualized and reframed?

Like "State Dept memo: U.S.-backed 2009 coup in Honduras was 'illegal and unconstitutional.'”

That means someone at some point knowing they weren't the final word offered that opinion. It may mean a lot more than that, but it's extracted from context.

Or: "“From hundreds of diplomatic cables, Afghanistan emerges as a looking-glass land where bribery, extortion and embezzlement are the norm and the honest man is a distinct outlier.”

Is that shocking and we needed Manning to confirm this somehow?
I agree. Nothing here was really all that earthshaking. So why keep it secret?
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 21 Aug 2013, 13:14

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:That's ... not really all that impressive. How much is decontextualized and reframed?

Like "State Dept memo: U.S.-backed 2009 coup in Honduras was 'illegal and unconstitutional.'”

That means someone at some point knowing they weren't the final word offered that opinion. It may mean a lot more than that, but it's extracted from context.

Or: "“From hundreds of diplomatic cables, Afghanistan emerges as a looking-glass land where bribery, extortion and embezzlement are the norm and the honest man is a distinct outlier.”

Is that shocking and we needed Manning to confirm this somehow?
I agree. Nothing here was really all that earthshaking. So why keep it secret?
I have two problems with Manning:
1) He shared secrets, which is a grave threat to national security.
2) None of what he shared is at all important, so the public didn't really benefit from his foolish act.

I also have two problems with Wikileaks:
1) They dumped all the data, rather than exercising discretion like a good investigative journalist would.
2) They claim to be transparency activists, but they worked with investigative journalists to vet documents and disclose selectively.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 21 Aug 2013, 13:16

So, you are in negotiations or working on a project or angling for an outcome different from many of your colleagues because you haven't sold them on it yet. You want to try to do that while including the whole mouse distribution list on every email? Can people grab anything you say at any point and assert it is the position of your whole company?

If diplomacy is legitimate action, internal communications of at least a certain sort for a certain amount of time must be assumed to be not for public consumption.

thoreau those are false pairs

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Aug 2013, 13:24

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:That's ... not really all that impressive. How much is decontextualized and reframed?

Like "State Dept memo: U.S.-backed 2009 coup in Honduras was 'illegal and unconstitutional.'”

That means someone at some point knowing they weren't the final word offered that opinion. It may mean a lot more than that, but it's extracted from context.

Or: "“From hundreds of diplomatic cables, Afghanistan emerges as a looking-glass land where bribery, extortion and embezzlement are the norm and the honest man is a distinct outlier.”

Is that shocking and we needed Manning to confirm this somehow?
I agree. Nothing here was really all that earthshaking. So why keep it secret?
I understand why to keep it confidential. Most of it wasn't 'secret', but confidential. None of it was 'top secret'. What I don't understand is how its disclosure warrants a sentence more than ten years longer than the total sentences of all the Abu Ghraib torturers (a total of 20 years two months).

It is infinitely longer than the sentences of the people who tortured Manadel al-Jamadi to death, because no one was ever charged. The private contractor involved was granted qualified immunity for his actions.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 21 Aug 2013, 13:27

I agree with that. My take is some additional time served because UCMJ is no joke, but the treatment so far beyond standard process to date is intolerable.

That is a different position from "he's a hero more of that look at all this public good".

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Andrew » 21 Aug 2013, 13:35

Time served would be plenty.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Hugh Akston » 21 Aug 2013, 13:40

JasonL wrote:So, you are in negotiations or working on a project or angling for an outcome different from many of your colleagues because you haven't sold them on it yet. You want to try to do that while including the whole mouse distribution list on every email? Can people grab anything you say at any point and assert it is the position of your whole company?

If diplomacy is legitimate action, internal communications of at least a certain sort for a certain amount of time must be assumed to be not for public consumption.
Last I checked CIA drones and the USMC don't figure into the Mouse's bargaining position. Could be I just don't work in that division tho.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by thoreau » 21 Aug 2013, 13:48

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:So, you are in negotiations or working on a project or angling for an outcome different from many of your colleagues because you haven't sold them on it yet. You want to try to do that while including the whole mouse distribution list on every email? Can people grab anything you say at any point and assert it is the position of your whole company?

If diplomacy is legitimate action, internal communications of at least a certain sort for a certain amount of time must be assumed to be not for public consumption.
Last I checked CIA drones and the USMC don't figure into the Mouse's bargaining position. Could be I just don't work in that division tho.
Isn't Nick Fury on the Mouse's payroll?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by JasonL » 21 Aug 2013, 14:18

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:So, you are in negotiations or working on a project or angling for an outcome different from many of your colleagues because you haven't sold them on it yet. You want to try to do that while including the whole mouse distribution list on every email? Can people grab anything you say at any point and assert it is the position of your whole company?

If diplomacy is legitimate action, internal communications of at least a certain sort for a certain amount of time must be assumed to be not for public consumption.
Last I checked CIA drones and the USMC don't figure into the Mouse's bargaining position. Could be I just don't work in that division tho.
Is diplomacy or military action ever justified? Ever? If so, to the degree it is, confidentiality is required. You can't work in full reply all mode on anything involving multiple interests. Or anything at all really.

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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Taktix® » 21 Aug 2013, 14:28

What is considered diplomacy?

Training torturers? Propping up dictators? If the US can't conduct foreign policy without violating basic human rights then it has no business conducting diplomacy, and it's actions should be subject to scrutiny.

ETA: A basic and unrealistic statement, I know. But really, if so many shenanigans can be covered up by claims of diplomatic necessity, then we need to rethink out system of diplomacy...
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by lunchstealer » 21 Aug 2013, 14:50

Andrew wrote:Time served would be plenty.
And compensation for the cruel and unusual conditions of said time served.

I think 'he's a hero' and 'he should serve time' are not mutually exclusive. The UCMJ may or may not be a joke, but no jail time at all would encourage too many people to be wannabe heroes. The stuff he plead to should've been enough to send the message that 'thou shalt not just leak shit all willy nilly'.
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Re: Wikileaks - Diplomatic Cables Edition

Post by Jadagul » 21 Aug 2013, 15:41

lunchstealer wrote:
Andrew wrote:Time served would be plenty.
And compensation for the cruel and unusual conditions of said time served.

I think 'he's a hero' and 'he should serve time' are not mutually exclusive. The UCMJ may or may not be a joke, but no jail time at all would encourage too many people to be wannabe heroes. The stuff he plead to should've been enough to send the message that 'thou shalt not just leak shit all willy nilly'.
I'd be okay with that result. I'd also be okay with something somewhat stiffer, though I do like the idea someone suggested a month or so ago of declaring "I normally would give a longer sentence but his treatment to date has been intolerable and so I'm letting him off with time already served". But 35 years is rather excessive.

But I don't think he should have done what he did, and even if he should have it's important to at least have enough consequences that people don't do that sort of thing trivially. (That burden has been met and more, to be clear).

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