Groping Resistance - Pfft.

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Eric the .5b
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Groping Resistance - Pfft.

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Nov 2010, 15:07

I think the TSA gropey pat-downs are going to be one of those things people actually rebel against and the government will back down on.

Someone's blogged experience:

http://blog.i
zs.me/post/1591805056/tsa-success-story

Discussion on it, including someone describing his experience:

http://news.yco
mbinator.com/item?id=1910954

And yes, I'm the one who comments to wonder what sort of rads TSA folks are getting.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Nov 2010, 15:08

On the downside, this may not be a shoop:

Image
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JasonL
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2010, 15:14

I can live with the scanner thing. What bothers me is I hear they reserve the right to grope even if you say you'd rather do the scanner. I might get arrested if they try to have that conversation with my wife.

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Jennifer
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2010, 15:28

My editor at the British thing wants a story from me about this by tonight. I'm choking on an embarrassment of riches here; if my word limit were in the "War and Peace" range maybe I could do justice to the topic.

But I am NOT okay with the scanner, and will remain not-okay with it even if it were proven 100% safe and non-cancerous. There is something seriously fucked up with this country when "I do not consent to letting anyone other than my freely chosen bedmate or physician see my naked body or feel my genitalia" is somehow considered controversial. Fucking BULLSHIT. That's the linchpin of the argument I'm drafting right now, only more concise and less obscene.
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dbcooper
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by dbcooper » 16 Nov 2010, 15:30

Please reference Janet Napolitano:

http://gizmodo.
com/5691390/a-message-from-homeland-security-my-way-or-the-highway
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pistoffnick
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by pistoffnick » 16 Nov 2010, 15:31

TSA = testicle squeezing authority
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 16 Nov 2010, 15:33

Scared by x-ray machine given that you have people making 50+ trips a year.

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Jennifer
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2010, 15:48

pistoffnick wrote:TSA = testicle squeezing authority
I think I'll go with "Tit-squashing assholes."

Db, thanks. I will link to that piece. Once again, I have anidea of what I want to say but am having a hard time figuring out how to say it. This has me so enraged it's actually dulling my eloquence rather than sharpening it.

Did you know there really is something to the cliche "I saw red?" (Deep breath. Deep breath.) Too much blood rushing through your eye veins at once can put a brief red flash in your vision.

Goddamned motherfucker piece of shit TSA bastards. I condemn every craven cliche cited to defend them these last nine years: "They protect us from terrorists." No, they do not. Every degrading and infantilising lashing out they've created -- (reference and link here to my TSA article from last year, the stay in your seat and keep your hands visible bit) -- was useless security theater. The body scanners werein reference to the failed underwear bomber attempt -- I have to find that link where Israeli intelligence said the scanners would not have worked to catch him anyway, I remember reading it once.

"You gave up your rights when you bought an airline ticket." I gave up nothing; the government stole them from me.

"They're just doing their jobs." Anyone who finds this persuasive is not merely a craven coward but an historical ignoramus; the civilised world established at Nuremberg that "just following orders" is no excuse.

TSA employees deserve contempt, not respect. They are America's answer to the Stasi agents terrorising their fellow East Germans under communist regimes.
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thoreau
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by thoreau » 16 Nov 2010, 15:50

My biggest objection to the scanner, besides the radiation, is that when you go in you have to put your hands on your head like you're standing at gunpoint. We've gone from "America: Land of the Free!" to "America: Assume the Position!"

I plan to request a grope instead of a scan, so that I can chat with the person violating my privacy.
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Jennifer
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2010, 16:17

I just plowed through the obfuscatingly eye-glazing prose of Napolitano's justification column in USA Today.

Not only has she abandoned all pretence of being a public servant rather than a punitive overseer; she tells outright lies in doing so. "The imaging technology that we use cannot store, export, print or transmit images."

Already proven to be a lie; I must find the link for that.

"the vast majority of travelers say they prefer this technology to alternative screening measures." Bullshit. The anti-TSA backlash isn't being fueled because people love you.

"Rigorous privacy safeguards are also in place to protect the traveling public." When you're requiring people to let you see them naked, concepts like "privacy safeguards" by definition do not exist.

Hey, Thoreau -- have you a blog post with the "assume the position" line in it?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by dhex » 16 Nov 2010, 16:30

On the downside, this may not be a shoop:
holy mother of fuck.
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JasonL
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2010, 16:36

thoreau wrote:My biggest objection to the scanner, besides the radiation, is that when you go in you have to put your hands on your head like you're standing at gunpoint. We've gone from "America: Land of the Free!" to "America: Assume the Position!"

I plan to request a grope instead of a scan, so that I can chat with the person violating my privacy.
I agree with this. The scan itself doesn't bother me as much as the hands up thing. It feels wrong and triggers my eff you instincts.

However, I will not be groped. Like spitting in my face, I am likely to get aggressive if that happens.

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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Sandy » 16 Nov 2010, 17:07

I will be groped, and thank them profusely in the most sexually suggestive pervert voice I think I can get away with.

Also, to toot my own horn, I'd hoped this would catch on:
@SandyS1 wrote:You've done enough, TSA. Have you no sense of decency, Ms. Napolitano, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Nov 2010, 17:33

I too will opt to be groped. I only hope that I get a dude groper, just to see what happens when I pat him on the ass in return.
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by pistoffnick » 16 Nov 2010, 17:45

Hugh Akston wrote:I too will opt to be groped. I only hope that I get a dude groper, just to see what happens when I pat him on the ass in return.
I'm not sure that is such a good idea, Hugh.
Always be suspicious of people who have, or crave, power. - Stanley Kubrick
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Timothy
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Timothy » 16 Nov 2010, 18:50

My biggest objection is, well, frankly all of it...but the fucking lying about the scanners is pretty annoying. Eventhough millimeter wave IR/near microwave is pretty low energy and safe (IR is the range of radiation that your stove gives off), but in their FAQ they claim that it's "thousands of times less energy than a cellphone transmission" and I don't fucking think so. Cellphones operate at, what, 900MHz or something? Which has wavelength around, what, 30-40cm? Well, let's see, energy is hc/lambda, and last time I checked a millimeter was a lot smaller than a centimeter...so...MUCH higher in energy. Now, they must mean that the total energy exposure over the scan length is less than the total energy over the average cell call...

BUT! That's not the relevant metric with photons. The importance of photons is the kind of transitions they excite, and that's entirely dependent on the energy of each individual photon. The range of the millimeter wave scanner is going to be vibrational/rotational transition, which shouldn't do anything to your body really, but it would be nice if the clowns could at least do freshman physics.

The X-ray bit is just a fucking joke. It is right to worry about exposure to ionizing radiation, and especially as they seem to have based their safety info on whole-body dose rather than skin-incidence. UCSF folks just put out a brief on that, asking them to look into it. In either case, I'm not flying until this changes if I can possibly avoid it. To think, if I showed the "officer" my junk I'd get arrested.

TSA = Totalitarian State Agency
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Norbert Wronkletoad
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Norbert Wronkletoad » 16 Nov 2010, 19:56

passersby were amazed by the tremendous quantities of fecal matter
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Nov 2010, 20:21

Hmm, nobody provided any links or substantiation, but there was some scuttlebutt in the comments about TSA employees working the x-ray machines specifically not being allowed to wear dosimeters.

As much as any of us might heap abuse on TSA folks, i think it would suck for the legacy of this security theater to be a bunch of people getting cancer.
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Jennifer
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2010, 20:26

It would suck if ordinary Americans or travelers in our airspace got cancer. As for the TSA agents, I have no sympathy for them at all. To keep their worthless asses housed and fed, they took gigs whose sole job description is to trample the constitutional rights of their fellow Americans. Fuck them. I wouldn't shed any tears to learn that Stasi spy gear caused cancer in its agents, either.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Eric the .5b » 16 Nov 2010, 20:43

Jennifer wrote:As for the TSA agents, I have no sympathy for them at all.
I'm feeling contrary on this point.

They're willing to do things that the American public has been, up until now, perfectly willing to accept even when they're aware that the justifications for it are lacking. Americans have been complaining and snarking about, but not objecting to, security theater. Hell, even now, take the linked story - that family was willing to go through the scanner in the first place, before the guy talked to them about the claimed cancer risk.

Most Americans don't have a real problem with what's been done to them. It doesn't take an abnormal or evil person to be willing to do that to other people. Not to excuse any of the other bullshit or the fact that it's wrong in our political beliefs, but most of the time, TSA people are doing exactly what nearly anyone plucked off the street would be comfortable doing after watching a couple of training videos.

We've only now hit something people are balking at. And if stories of some TSA people not letting children go through scanners are true, that's not an entirely one-sided thing. People are complicated.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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thoreau
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by thoreau » 16 Nov 2010, 21:04

I'm no expert on radiation hazards, so I'd pretty much have to take somebody else at their word on whether these machines are safe. However, I do know that x-ray doses can be done in a straightforward manner, and that these measurements are done all the time. Why is there any controversy or doubt one way or the other? It should be a simple thing to sort out.

Now, I understand that there are some controversies over what sort of dose actually is or isn't safe. Still, if we take some sort of standards as a given, it should be straightforward to determine whether the doses are within the limits specified by OSHA, radiology boards, or other organizations that generally make rules for these things.

Also, I still can't believe that a teenager can get in trouble for sexting but a TSA employee can sit there all day and look at naked pictures.

Anyway, next time I fly I'm choosing the grope over the cancerous pr0n video. At least I can deliver a lecture to the groper.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Jennifer
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2010, 21:28

Eric the .5b wrote:
Jennifer wrote:As for the TSA agents, I have no sympathy for them at all.
I'm feeling contrary on this point.

They're willing to do things that the American public has been, up until now, perfectly willing to accept even when they're aware that the justifications for it are lacking. Americans have been complaining and snarking about, but not objecting to, security theater. Hell, even now, take the linked story - that family was willing to go through the scanner in the first place, before the guy talked to them about the claimed cancer risk.
Perhaps my view will moderate when my sheer fury drops, but for now I simply do not give a damn. The issue here isn't whether or not Americans formally objected to it, but whether or not it was wrong. Jim Crow was evil long before the civil rights movement got around to saying so. Furthermore, how much of that lack-of-objection was due to intimidation? "Shut up or at best you'll miss your flight, and at worst you'll be arrested."
Most Americans don't have a real problem with what's been done to them. It doesn't take an abnormal or evil person to be willing to do that to other people. Not to excuse any of the other bullshit or the fact that it's wrong in our political beliefs, but most of the time, TSA people are doing exactly what nearly anyone plucked off the street would be comfortable doing after watching a couple of training videos.
The Milgram and Stanford prison experiments suggest that's exactly to be expected. I still reserve my sympathy for the victims rather than the victimisers. The only TSA agents worthy of respect are those who resigned in protest over what their job entailed -- assuming any such agents exist.
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Kolohe » 16 Nov 2010, 21:34

Timothy wrote:The X-ray bit is just a fucking joke. It is right to worry about exposure to ionizing radiation, and especially as they seem to have based their safety info on whole-body dose rather than skin-incidence. UCSF folks just put out a brief on that, asking them to look into it.
And the worst part is there are several sections of government (the EPA, the NRC, the NIH, the DOE, the Nuclear Navy, and that's just the top of my head) that have the institutional knowledge and already have published standards on this shit and make the distinction all the fucking time.


X-Rays when diagnostically appropriate are perfectly safe but you still want to minimize to max extent possible your exposure. Which is the rule of all ionizing radiation (which I didn't think neither backscatter* nor milimeter wave was, but I'd have to look it up to be sure). The real issue with ionization radiation is we know how much will make a person sick and at higher levels kill them with increasing certainty, but below that level long term health effects are entirely statistical and not deterministic.


*because by design it doesn't penetrate the skin. Interactions with the dead epidermal layer cause no biological effect whatsover. But again I could be wrong about how backscatter works.
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Jake » 16 Nov 2010, 21:39

Maybe on the way home from Disney World (don't want to miss the vacation, after all) I should make sure I have a pair of latex gloves in my pocket and my phone recording audio. Then I can ask the groper if he feels that patdowns of this sort are a violation of the subject's rights. When he says no, I reckon I've got verbal permission to grope him in exactly the same way he gropes me. It's only fair, after all.
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Re: Groping Resistance Growing

Post by Hugh Akston » 16 Nov 2010, 22:29

Image
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