And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by thoreau » 02 Oct 2019, 21:28

Eric and DAR, you make valid points. I like you guys, but I have spent too long with the same people in multiple facets of my life. Maybe I need a short break.

I'll be back.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Shem » 02 Oct 2019, 22:04

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:53
lunchstealer wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:47
nicole wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 14:13
Yeah. He keeps talking about how nothing matters but he's still getting upset about it like it does.
TBF the nothing matters bits are critiques of magical or blinkered partisan thinking like 'anyone can excel at physics skills don't matter' and 'there's no quid pro quo so this is totally a non-story' and 'trade wars are good and easy to win'. It's frustration that everyone else acts like nothing matters in a post-truth world.

So I mean the nothing matters is literally an expression of being upset by people acting like shit doesn't matter when he deeply feels that it does in fact fucking matter.
I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that every single person on the Gryll already understood that with crystal clarity. Which, btw, is why it's annoying as fuck and he knows it's annoying as fuck and that's why he continues to do it.
At least some of it was the impenetrable wall of cynicism that greeted any expression of outrage at Trump's behavior in the first two-ish years of his Presidency from some commenters around here. Any number of actions were greeted with an attitude of "ho-hum, politicians gonna politic," even after it became clear that what was happening was significantly outside the bounds of norms as they had been practiced even up to the end of the Obama Administration. Especially since there seemed to be a much easier time ginning up outrage during the previous (blue) administration. For a while, it was like talking to Benjamin from Animal Farm every day.

I would prefer not to personalize anything, but if you really want specific examples, I can provide them.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Eric the .5b » 02 Oct 2019, 22:18

thoreau wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 21:28
Eric and DAR, you make valid points. I like you guys, but I have spent too long with the same people in multiple facets of my life. Maybe I need a short break.

I'll be back.
Do what you need to do. I'll look forward to seeing you back
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 02 Oct 2019, 22:31

Shem wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 22:04
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:53
lunchstealer wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:47
nicole wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 14:13
Yeah. He keeps talking about how nothing matters but he's still getting upset about it like it does.
TBF the nothing matters bits are critiques of magical or blinkered partisan thinking like 'anyone can excel at physics skills don't matter' and 'there's no quid pro quo so this is totally a non-story' and 'trade wars are good and easy to win'. It's frustration that everyone else acts like nothing matters in a post-truth world.

So I mean the nothing matters is literally an expression of being upset by people acting like shit doesn't matter when he deeply feels that it does in fact fucking matter.
I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that every single person on the Gryll already understood that with crystal clarity. Which, btw, is why it's annoying as fuck and he knows it's annoying as fuck and that's why he continues to do it.
At least some of it was the impenetrable wall of cynicism that greeted any expression of outrage at Trump's behavior in the first two-ish years of his Presidency from some commenters around here. Any number of actions were greeted with an attitude of "ho-hum, politicians gonna politic," even after it became clear that what was happening was significantly outside the bounds of norms as they had been practiced even up to the end of the Obama Administration. Especially since there seemed to be a much easier time ginning up outrage during the previous (blue) administration. For a while, it was like talking to Benjamin from Animal Farm every day.

I would prefer not to personalize anything, but if you really want specific examples, I can provide them.
I wouldn't mind specific examples of something I said. I mean, if I said it, I said it and, as I said above, if it goes to "OHMYGAWD, Ru-skies were polluting our precious internet fluids with lies" I still say, yeah, so what.

But it's entirely possible -- I know this firsthand because I'm one of them -- to have jumped fairly early on the "Trump is a dangerous idiot unfit for office" bandwagon while still saying that on this occasion or that what he appears to have been doing or saying was, yeah, nonetheless political business as usual. And I've found it, as Eric put it, fatiguing to have to say, "Yeah, ABCDEFGHI, but no, not J, and KLMN, well, maybe O and P, etc." only to be greeted with what boils down to "It's the entire alphabet, you idiot! I don't want to hear any bullshit about how J may not count and why can't you see O and P!" ad nauseum. It's not 11-dimensional chess to point out that, yeah, this piece of behavior is wrong and arguably criminal but, alas, not particularly unusual in the old swamp or that political realities might reasonably mitigate against a full-steam-ahead charge for impeachment given both the pros and cons of such a decision. I'm still firmly of the opinion that impeachment won't (1) remove Trump from office and (2) may very well end up biting the Dems in the ass and improving his chances for a second term. That's just a practical, political assessment, not a moral stance.

I don't recall having spent all that much time attacking Obama but, hey, I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, either. I mean, maybe I did. Certainly, I did over the secret hit-list and the mandated insurance provision of the ACA and the bailouts. But to say that the Imperial Presidency is something that goes back at least as far as Nixon, if not FDR, and that therefore the solution to Trump's miscreant behavior lies, unfortunately, in an acquiescent public and an intentionally impotent Congress. That's context, if nothing else.

Finally, while I certainly hope thoreau isn't seriously taking anything more than an extremely brief leave from the Gryll -- if nothing else, our mean I.Q. would probably drop 15 points -- I also weary of being lumped in with his idiot colleagues. I'm genuinely sorry for him that he finds his work environment so frustrating even as, yes, I've stated the fairly obvious and I think obviously fair point that academics whining about the academy is easily tone-deaf to the plight of the rest of us (well, you) prols. I mean, come on, get another job somehow, somewhere. Yeah, I know that's not anywhere close to easy even for someone with a PhD in physics but, geez, sunk-cost fallacy, anyone?

So, sure, if I'm part of the problem, tell me. Tell me how. Maybe I owe him an apology. It's been known to happen and I've been known, however infrequently, to do it.

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Shem » 02 Oct 2019, 22:45

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 22:31
Shem wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 22:04
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:53
lunchstealer wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 18:47
nicole wrote:
02 Oct 2019, 14:13
Yeah. He keeps talking about how nothing matters but he's still getting upset about it like it does.
TBF the nothing matters bits are critiques of magical or blinkered partisan thinking like 'anyone can excel at physics skills don't matter' and 'there's no quid pro quo so this is totally a non-story' and 'trade wars are good and easy to win'. It's frustration that everyone else acts like nothing matters in a post-truth world.

So I mean the nothing matters is literally an expression of being upset by people acting like shit doesn't matter when he deeply feels that it does in fact fucking matter.
I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that every single person on the Gryll already understood that with crystal clarity. Which, btw, is why it's annoying as fuck and he knows it's annoying as fuck and that's why he continues to do it.
At least some of it was the impenetrable wall of cynicism that greeted any expression of outrage at Trump's behavior in the first two-ish years of his Presidency from some commenters around here. Any number of actions were greeted with an attitude of "ho-hum, politicians gonna politic," even after it became clear that what was happening was significantly outside the bounds of norms as they had been practiced even up to the end of the Obama Administration. Especially since there seemed to be a much easier time ginning up outrage during the previous (blue) administration. For a while, it was like talking to Benjamin from Animal Farm every day.

I would prefer not to personalize anything, but if you really want specific examples, I can provide them.
I wouldn't mind specific examples of something I said. I mean, if I said it, I said it and, as I said above, if it goes to "OHMYGAWD, Ru-skies were polluting our precious internet fluids with lies" I still say, yeah, so what.

But it's entirely possible -- I know this firsthand because I'm one of them -- to have jumped fairly early on the "Trump is a dangerous idiot unfit for office" bandwagon while still saying that on this occasion or that what he appears to have been doing or saying was, yeah, nonetheless political business as usual. And I've found it, as Eric put it, fatiguing to have to say, "Yeah, ABCDEFGHI, but no, not J, and KLMN, well, maybe O and P, etc." only to be greeted with what boils down to "It's the entire alphabet, you idiot! I don't want to hear any bullshit about how J may not count and why can't you see O and P!" ad nauseum. It's not 11-dimensional chess to point out that, yeah, this piece of behavior is wrong and arguably criminal but, alas, not particularly unusual in the old swamp or that political realities might reasonably mitigate against a full-steam-ahead charge for impeachment given both the pros and cons of such a decision. I'm still firmly of the opinion that impeachment won't (1) remove Trump from office and (2) may very well end up biting the Dems in the ass and improving his chances for a second term. That's just a practical, political assessment, not a moral stance.

I don't recall having spent all that much time attacking Obama but, hey, I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, either. I mean, maybe I did. Certainly, I did over the secret hit-list and the mandated insurance provision of the ACA and the bailouts. But to say that the Imperial Presidency is something that goes back at least as far as Nixon, if not FDR, and that therefore the solution to Trump's miscreant behavior lies, unfortunately, in an acquiescent public and an intentionally impotent Congress. That's context, if nothing else.

Finally, while I certainly hope thoreau isn't seriously taking anything more than an extremely brief leave from the Gryll -- if nothing else, our mean I.Q. would probably drop 15 points -- I also weary of being lumped in with his idiot colleagues. I'm genuinely sorry for him that he finds his work environment so frustrating even as, yes, I've stated the fairly obvious and I think obviously fair point that academics whining about the academy is easily tone-deaf to the plight of the rest of us (well, you) prols. I mean, come on, get another job somehow, somewhere. Yeah, I know that's not anywhere close to easy even for someone with a PhD in physics but, geez, sunk-cost fallacy, anyone?

So, sure, if I'm part of the problem, tell me. Tell me how. Maybe I owe him an apology. It's been known to happen and I've been known, however infrequently, to do it.
I wasn't referring to you in my point. Just trying to explain where I suspect some of the frustration came from, since I shared it.

And, FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've also told him that the constant frustration vomit about his idiot colleagues is something of a chore after a while as well. Eventually, I chalked it up as "sometimes a bro takes the hit so a guy's wife doesn't have to."
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 02 Oct 2019, 23:02

I don't mind the idiot colleagues comments nearly as much as I mind being lumped in with them. Generally, I agree this is and should continue to be a place where we can spout off about the frustrations of our 'real' lives. But I'm not the guy who got a teaching award for not teaching; I'm the guy who in his own professional capacity avoided meetings like the plague, routinely called his own and his colleagues' jobs something of a joke (not because we did them poorly but because in the bigger picture doing them well didn't really matter much) and who took a powder pretty much the very first chance he got to leave.

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by JasonL » 03 Oct 2019, 07:50

I mean clearly I’m a primary target of all that. On trump I think I’m close to someone like Michael Moynihan, i have expressed that I think he’s uniquely stupid, reckless in his dealings, and bad at policy. I have said that the investigation was justified even though I also think the fisa warrant process included evidence it shouldn’t have. I have said that the meeting was bad but in itself was probably not impeachable. I have said that it is pretty important for the trump coalition lose an election. I have said I’d vote for nearly any donkey on offer over trump including people I think are actually crazy. I have said we are in a cold cyber war with both Russia and China. I have said the Ukraine thing is of a different caliber and is almost impeachable right now. So ... fucking shut up about how people like me are engaging in reflexive denials of evidence because we don’t think taxtix rantings are anywhere near credible or join you in your obsessions.

On Gore I have not been in denial of AGW as a phenomenon since pretty much the time Ron Bailey came around - the time of the reconciliation of satellite data. Like early 2000s. I have said Gore was not right because - just as DAR suggested, it’s not at all clear we should have sacrificed growth to stop warming or that we could have or that he would have done anything that mattered. I’ve been an advocate of a very large carbon tax for about 10 years. So, shut the fuck up about how people like me are anti science or want you to deny evidence of your eyes.

If you think that nuance is right leaning - whatever that’s fine we know that you and I have different values on class things at a minimum. Am I supposed to act like you or shem or others present neutral weighted narratives in spaces of disagreement? I don’t think you do but I also don’t care in large part because those things are what you care about. That should be ok. What I’m trying to figure out is how does the stuff I’ve said here make me an agent of the post truth trump fellating polity? Who here is not accepting of nuance in their story?


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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Warren » 03 Oct 2019, 11:06

JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 07:50
I mean clearly I’m a primary target of all that. On trump I think I’m close to someone like Michael Moynihan
I'm Nick Gillespie on Trump. He says and tweets horrible stupid things on the regular. But this constant "This is it! Now we got him." focus on impeachment, 1 distracts from talking about actual issues beyond this administration and 2 is entirely focused on winning by getting rid of him with no coherent policy platform for replacing him. In general all this wringing and gnashing is just the other side of the Cult of Personality coin. What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Shem » 03 Oct 2019, 12:24

Warren wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 11:06
JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 07:50
I mean clearly I’m a primary target of all that. On trump I think I’m close to someone like Michael Moynihan
I'm Nick Gillespie on Trump. He says and tweets horrible stupid things on the regular. But this constant "This is it! Now we got him." focus on impeachment, 1 distracts from talking about actual issues beyond this administration and 2 is entirely focused on winning by getting rid of him with no coherent policy platform for replacing him. In general all this wringing and gnashing is just the other side of the Cult of Personality coin. What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
You spent two years steadfastly refusing to condemn any of his statements, because "at least he's not starting a war." You also dismissed any damage those statements might have done to the norms of what a President is or ought to do.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Solitudinarian » 03 Oct 2019, 12:51

Shem wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 12:24
Warren wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 11:06
JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 07:50
I mean clearly I’m a primary target of all that. On trump I think I’m close to someone like Michael Moynihan
I'm Nick Gillespie on Trump. He says and tweets horrible stupid things on the regular. But this constant "This is it! Now we got him." focus on impeachment, 1 distracts from talking about actual issues beyond this administration and 2 is entirely focused on winning by getting rid of him with no coherent policy platform for replacing him. In general all this wringing and gnashing is just the other side of the Cult of Personality coin. What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
You spent two years steadfastly refusing to condemn any of his statements, because "at least he's not starting a war." You also dismissed any damage those statements might have done to the norms of what a President is or ought to do.
An honest question: what are the norms of what a President is or ought to do, and since when?
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by JasonL » 03 Oct 2019, 13:03

I hold the question of norms at a degree of cynicism somewhere between warren and Shem, but I do think it requires a lot of fleshing out.

Like, I think Trump behavior vis a vis Ukraine is impeachable. But ... what would it mean to norms if he got replaced by Biden next election? I’ve spent a fair amount of calories arguing against whataboutism of trumpers, but this is a sense in which it seems relevant because he could take office. I think I could eventually express a reasonable view of why Biden would improve things that matter, but it would not be easy.

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Shem » 03 Oct 2019, 13:17

Solitudinarian wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 12:51
Shem wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 12:24
Warren wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 11:06
JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 07:50
I mean clearly I’m a primary target of all that. On trump I think I’m close to someone like Michael Moynihan
I'm Nick Gillespie on Trump. He says and tweets horrible stupid things on the regular. But this constant "This is it! Now we got him." focus on impeachment, 1 distracts from talking about actual issues beyond this administration and 2 is entirely focused on winning by getting rid of him with no coherent policy platform for replacing him. In general all this wringing and gnashing is just the other side of the Cult of Personality coin. What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
You spent two years steadfastly refusing to condemn any of his statements, because "at least he's not starting a war." You also dismissed any damage those statements might have done to the norms of what a President is or ought to do.
An honest question: what are the norms of what a President is or ought to do, and since when?
That the President should be transparent in finances. That the President shouldn't simultaneously be drawing a paycheck from his personal business. That the President shouldn't be using schoolyard insults to describe his political opponents. That the President shouldn't fire and hire specifically based on who will best serve as his personal flying monkey. That the President should actually nominate people to run the bureaucracy, instead of letting positions remain completely empty. To give a few examples. Pretty much anything that's happened that prompted Republicans to use the AirBud defense.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Oct 2019, 13:44

From both Greek and Roman culture and law, we have the notion, however inchoate or inconsistent, that a public official has the political equivalent of a fiduciary responsibility to the public; that he or she, having volunteered for a position of power and responsibility, should use that power for the good of the public and not for self-serving purposes. To the extent that the president is the de facto head of state and, as such, represents the U.S. in its dealings with the rest of the world, I think we have reasonable expectations that he will bring some dignity and gravity to that role, that he will be wise enough to recognize that he isn't and couldn't be a subject-matter expert on all the things that the office requires, so he seeks out and relies upon expertise to advise him even though he may reject that advice. At minimum, maybe it's reasonable to expect any president not to act as a bully and a buffoon in office, too, though maybe that's just asking too much.

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by JD » 03 Oct 2019, 14:26

Warren wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 11:06
What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
The Democrats can offer a more productive alternative, and Trump can make fun of the way they talk, or their hairstyle, or something, and in 2020 we can all watch Trump get re-elected. Because if there's any lesson to be learned from this, it's that the electorate doesn't really give a shit about issues or policy or statesmanship.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Mo » 03 Oct 2019, 14:57

JasonL wrote:I hold the question of norms at a degree of cynicism somewhere between warren and Shem, but I do think it requires a lot of fleshing out.

Like, I think Trump behavior vis a vis Ukraine is impeachable. But ... what would it mean to norms if he got replaced by Biden next election? I’ve spent a fair amount of calories arguing against whataboutism of trumpers, but this is a sense in which it seems relevant because he could take office. I think I could eventually express a reasonable view of why Biden would improve things that matter, but it would not be easy.
Has their been any evidence that Joe Biden acted inappropriately at all? Hunter Biden has been shady AF, but I haven’t seen anything indicating that Joe did anything he shouldn’t have been. And dudes trading their parents’ name for cushy gigs covers my entire life. It’s gross, but unless the principal did anything to make it worthwhile, it’s hard for me to care because I don’t want to punish someone for having idiot kids/siblings.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Warren » 03 Oct 2019, 15:05

JD wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 14:26
Warren wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 11:06
What we need to be doing is focusing on issues and policy. What the Democrats need to be doing, is offering a more productive alternative.
The Democrats can offer a more productive alternative, and Trump can make fun of the way they talk, or their hairstyle, or something, and in 2020 we can all watch Trump get re-elected. Because if there's any lesson to be learned from this, it's that the electorate doesn't really give a shit about issues or policy or statesmanship.
Piffle. A not-loony competent Dem alternative to Troll in Chief would walk away with it in a landslide.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Warren » 03 Oct 2019, 15:09

Shem wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 12:24
You spent two years steadfastly refusing to condemn any of his statements, because "at least he's not starting a war."
Not the way I would describe it. I figured out Trump says/tweets outrageous and stupid things before he was sworn into office. I've been counseling that everybody should ignore what Trump says/tweets no matter how horrible because it doesn't matter. I stand by that.
You also dismissed any damage those statements might have done to the norms of what a President is or ought to do.
Ought to do? No, the POTUS ought not act like a psychotic clown. But if he does, I don't think that's as bad as acting like an elder statesman and governing like Joseph Stalin.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by JasonL » 03 Oct 2019, 15:28

Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 14:57
JasonL wrote:I hold the question of norms at a degree of cynicism somewhere between warren and Shem, but I do think it requires a lot of fleshing out.

Like, I think Trump behavior vis a vis Ukraine is impeachable. But ... what would it mean to norms if he got replaced by Biden next election? I’ve spent a fair amount of calories arguing against whataboutism of trumpers, but this is a sense in which it seems relevant because he could take office. I think I could eventually express a reasonable view of why Biden would improve things that matter, but it would not be easy.
Has their been any evidence that Joe Biden acted inappropriately at all? Hunter Biden has been shady AF, but I haven’t seen anything indicating that Joe did anything he shouldn’t have been. And dudes trading their parents’ name for cushy gigs covers my entire life. It’s gross, but unless the principal did anything to make it worthwhile, it’s hard for me to care because I don’t want to punish someone for having idiot kids/siblings.
I think it smells worse to me than to you, and the nature of the smell is the type of job and the company in question and why he would be offered that job in the first place. If we are going to legal things, I agree I don't have evidence directly, but if we are going to norms? That thing reeks.

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Warren » 03 Oct 2019, 15:48

JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 15:28
Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 14:57
JasonL wrote:I hold the question of norms at a degree of cynicism somewhere between warren and Shem, but I do think it requires a lot of fleshing out.

Like, I think Trump behavior vis a vis Ukraine is impeachable. But ... what would it mean to norms if he got replaced by Biden next election? I’ve spent a fair amount of calories arguing against whataboutism of trumpers, but this is a sense in which it seems relevant because he could take office. I think I could eventually express a reasonable view of why Biden would improve things that matter, but it would not be easy.
Has their been any evidence that Joe Biden acted inappropriately at all? Hunter Biden has been shady AF, but I haven’t seen anything indicating that Joe did anything he shouldn’t have been. And dudes trading their parents’ name for cushy gigs covers my entire life. It’s gross, but unless the principal did anything to make it worthwhile, it’s hard for me to care because I don’t want to punish someone for having idiot kids/siblings.
I think it smells worse to me than to you, and the nature of the smell is the type of job and the company in question and why he would be offered that job in the first place. If we are going to legal things, I agree I don't have evidence directly, but if we are going to norms? That thing reeks.
Biden was basically in charge of US foreign policy with regards to Ukraine. His son collecting six figure salary for a job that has no duties paid for by the Ukrainians is not a good look. But it is SOP. If you can't be bothered to care about Hunter, then don't be whining about Trump Jr. either.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Mo » 03 Oct 2019, 16:36

Warren wrote:
JasonL wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 15:28
Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 14:57
JasonL wrote:I hold the question of norms at a degree of cynicism somewhere between warren and Shem, but I do think it requires a lot of fleshing out.

Like, I think Trump behavior vis a vis Ukraine is impeachable. But ... what would it mean to norms if he got replaced by Biden next election? I’ve spent a fair amount of calories arguing against whataboutism of trumpers, but this is a sense in which it seems relevant because he could take office. I think I could eventually express a reasonable view of why Biden would improve things that matter, but it would not be easy.
Has their been any evidence that Joe Biden acted inappropriately at all? Hunter Biden has been shady AF, but I haven’t seen anything indicating that Joe did anything he shouldn’t have been. And dudes trading their parents’ name for cushy gigs covers my entire life. It’s gross, but unless the principal did anything to make it worthwhile, it’s hard for me to care because I don’t want to punish someone for having idiot kids/siblings.
I think it smells worse to me than to you, and the nature of the smell is the type of job and the company in question and why he would be offered that job in the first place. If we are going to legal things, I agree I don't have evidence directly, but if we are going to norms? That thing reeks.
Biden was basically in charge of US foreign policy with regards to Ukraine. His son collecting six figure salary for a job that has no duties paid for by the Ukrainians is not a good look. But it is SOP. If you can't be bothered to care about Hunter, then don't be whining about Trump Jr. either.
He was? Everything I’ve read is he delivered the message based on policy that came from State. Any evidence from a source more reliable than the Daily Caller? Burisma wasn’t under investigation at time the message got sent and that doesn’t explain Christine Lagarde and others wanting the same.

And I wouldn’t care about DJTJ’s misadventures if DJT didn’t still own the Trump Org. Though Kushner and Ivanka are still fair game since they’re presidential advisors.
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Mo » 03 Oct 2019, 16:47

Also part of my reason in believing there’s not much there is, the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Aresen » 03 Oct 2019, 17:09

Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 16:47
Also part of my reason in believing there’s not much there is, the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime.
*sigh* Why does everything have to keep coming back to Hillary?
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Warren » 03 Oct 2019, 17:53

Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 16:36
Everything I’ve read is he delivered the message based on policy that came from State.
He was more than a message boy. He was the point man. Which is not to say he had carte blanche to do whatever. But still
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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Mo » 03 Oct 2019, 17:58

Warren wrote:
Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 16:36
Everything I’ve read is he delivered the message based on policy that came from State.
He was more than a message boy. He was the point man. Which is not to say he had carte blanche to do whatever. But still
Source?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: And Then There Were Four (The Impeachment Thread)

Post by Shem » 03 Oct 2019, 18:06

Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 17:58
Warren wrote:
Mo wrote:
03 Oct 2019, 16:36
Everything I’ve read is he delivered the message based on policy that came from State.
He was more than a message boy. He was the point man. Which is not to say he had carte blanche to do whatever. But still
Source?
He was senior Ukraine dude in the administration. Which does nothing whatsoever to change the fact that Warren is conflating "the appearance of impropriety" from Biden with "actual, demonstrable impropriety from the Trumps," but whatever.
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