The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

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Painboy
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Painboy »

Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

NYC gave us both major presidential candidates in 2016, too.

But sure, folks should feel free to retreat from The Reds are absolutely no worse on this issue, you can't seriously argue any distinction whatsoever... to Haha! Not all Blues are great on this issue!
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
What churches do the Republican party or any of its campaigns give billions of dollars to?
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
Cet animal est très méchant / Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

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Painboy
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Painboy »

Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:17
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
What churches do the Republican party or any of its campaigns give billions of dollars to?
I was making a general observation that people spend lots of money on things they believe are problems but aren't. This shouldn't be surprising.

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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Shem »

Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
Charitable activities, maintaining the building, lots of rational stuff that provides a direct effect on their life and the community? I mean, it's not the best example to use unless your goal is making people wonder how much experience you have of the inner workings of either one.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by thoreau »

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that voter suppression efforts don't actually work.

If a party thinks its best strategy is to try to keep you and people like you from voting, I think that says something pretty terrible about the party. They could have put their energy into turning out their supporters, or expanding their appeal, or whatever other positive measure. Instead, they decided to keep you and people like you from voting.

This is not a party that should be entrusted with power.

And even if you want to double down on "Whatever, it's all just, like people pursuing self-interest, nothing nefarious, and it's not even working", that argument still implies that they're probably even less competent than the other party.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Mo »

Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
People join and spend money on churches because they’re community organizations. It’s no different than joining a local rotary club or even a local LARP group. Even aside from the money for charitable works and stuff it’s a way for people to connect based on a common interest and maintain ties in their community.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by lunchstealer »

thoreau wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 16:40
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that voter suppression efforts don't actually work.

If a party thinks its best strategy is to try to keep you and people like you from voting, I think that says something pretty terrible about the party. They could have put their energy into turning out their supporters, or expanding their appeal, or whatever other positive measure. Instead, they decided to keep you and people like you from voting.

This is not a party that should be entrusted with power.

And even if you want to double down on "Whatever, it's all just, like people pursuing self-interest, nothing nefarious, and it's not even working", that argument still implies that they're probably even less competent than the other party.
You only get so many points for simply failing to be evil.

I mean, if you see a guy a couple hundred yards away who's taking pot shots at you with a musket, sure you could say, "Well he's harmless because there's almost no way he could actually hit me at this range." But just because they've failed so far doesn't mean that we shouldn't have any concern that they might actually find a way to succeed. Just the determination should at some point become disqualifying.

I mean, the AOC/Bernie crowd are worrying me about Team Blue. Right now they're unlikely to get anything done, but in large part because for all their charisma and attention-getting, they haven't really reached the true base of Team Blue voters. Team Blue may be fundamentally a party of universal healthcare, but they're not settled on everybody gets everything for free and nobody pays taxes but the 0.01% happy magickal unicorn funtimes. And even if the party did settle on that, there are probably enough checks in place that they'd have a low likelihood of succeeding, but at some point I'm starting to either look back at Team Red to see what they've got going on or at the very least not considering Team Blue a viable option.

The hard-core know-nothingism everything's-a-hoax oh-you-and-your-government-so-called-experts thing is eventually going to erode institutions enough that we could be back at Chicago/Tamany-Hall type levels of corruption or worse people REALLY wanting a strongman to just stop the dysfunction and we end up not with a Trump but with an Orban or Erdogan or even a Putin.

So if somebody's taking potshots at you with a musket, it's probably worth sorting his shit out before he gets his hands on a rifle.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by lunchstealer »

Mo wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 17:22
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
People join and spend money on churches because they’re community organizations. It’s no different than joining a local rotary club or even a local LARP group. Even aside from the money for charitable works and stuff it’s a way for people to connect based on a common interest and maintain ties in their community.
My parents took Sandy and I to church and Sunday school for years. Took forever to figure out that no they really are/were rationalists and more or less secular humanists, and if not formal atheists then functional atheists, for whom they felt the social connection and community conformity of church membership coupled with a grounding in the pervading mythology of the culture of 1970s/80s America would be necessary or at least beneficial to our future success in that society, especially perhaps as transplants into a fairly small Southern town where 'what church do you go to' is perhaps a bigger icebreaker between strangers than 'so what do you do for a living'. If I'd been a little more savvy about certain kinds of performative social behavior and less of a pedantic prick who can't just shut up when people are talking nonsense (at least sincerely talking nonsense) I might have kept up the use of church membership for social perks.

Churches do absolutely perform a social role that provides benefit even beyond the woo.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:36
Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:17
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
What churches do the Republican party or any of its campaigns give billions of dollars to?
I was making a general observation that people spend lots of money on things they believe are problems but aren't. This shouldn't be surprising.
You were conflating what individual people do with their disposable income and what competitive organizations do in order to win.

I mean, if you're arguing that competition does nothing at all to discourage organizations from wasting time on things that don't help them win, I guess shrugging at voter suppression makes sense.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Aresen »

lunchstealer wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 17:34
Churches do absolutely perform a social role that provides benefit even beyond the woo.
No better place to discuss how your neighbors are damned for all time.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Painboy »

Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 18:04
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:36
Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:17
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36
Painboy wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 19:41
You all keep getting bogged down in these little details. In the grand scheme those things don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to significant political movements and policy. Voting on an individual level is almost valueless given the numbers of people involved in the process. Certainly in any national election.
Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
What churches do the Republican party or any of its campaigns give billions of dollars to?
I was making a general observation that people spend lots of money on things they believe are problems but aren't. This shouldn't be surprising.
You were conflating what individual people do with their disposable income and what competitive organizations do in order to win.

I mean, if you're arguing that competition does nothing at all to discourage organizations from wasting time on things that don't help them win, I guess shrugging at voter suppression makes sense.
I have no idea what you are even arguing about.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Eric the .5b »

Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 22:31
Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 18:04
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:36
Eric the .5b wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:17
Painboy wrote:
03 Apr 2020, 15:14
Shem wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 22:36


Wonder why they spend all those billions of dollars trying to stop people from doing it, then.
Why do they give billions of dollars to their churches? They believe some things on faith alone. Just because they think it matters doesn't mean it actually does.
What churches do the Republican party or any of its campaigns give billions of dollars to?
I was making a general observation that people spend lots of money on things they believe are problems but aren't. This shouldn't be surprising.
You were conflating what individual people do with their disposable income and what competitive organizations do in order to win.

I mean, if you're arguing that competition does nothing at all to discourage organizations from wasting time on things that don't help them win, I guess shrugging at voter suppression makes sense.
I have no idea what you are even arguing about.
In simpler terms, you keep trying to counter people's criticisms with vaguely related but completely irrelevant observations. In this particular case above, you switch the "they" of the GOP trying to suppress voting to the "they" of Christians supporting churches, despite that not having anything to do with this, so you don't have to address the detail that it is, in fact, beneficial for the GOP to suppress votes.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Painboy »

Alright, I'll go back to my original point and try to break it down hopefully lessening any misunderstandings.

There's no real starting point for this as it has been ongoing in some form since the parties were created. Some individuals in the Republican party are concerned that the Dems are out there getting people to fraudulently vote. Voting multiple times, felons voting, dead people voting, and the like. Now whether they believe that or just tell themselves that justify pushing voter suppression initiatives isn't important. I can't know what other people actually think. I'm only concerned about the results of their actions. So within the party they lobby support and try to find like minded people. Eventually resources are allocated or scrounged up and the various initiatives are put in action.

Now individuals in the Democratic party aren't blind and can clearly see what the other side is doing. So they in turn increase their efforts, either by blocking the initiatives, increasing voter turnout, or compensating for the effects of the initiatives (ie. helping people with paperwork or whatever), effectively counteracting GOP efforts. Thus creating a kind of stalemate.

I'm sure there are a number potential voters here and there who get screwed by all this, but from what I can tell it's not a high number. Further many of these people might not have even bothered to vote had the Democrats not been spurred into action by the GOPs efforts. So it's even possible those efforts actually are counter productive in the long run.

Anyway, I just see the whole thing as a procedural slap fight and not something that really results in anything meaningful. I hope that makes things more clear.

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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Shem »

Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 13:56
I can't know what other people actually think. I'm only concerned about the results of their actions.
Are you actively following any of this in the news, or just basing your opinions off whatever information you've picked up in the background? Because you're doing the "how can we possibly know why they're doing what they're doing‽" song and dance, but we have actual documentation from court cases with them saying "we can use the following methods as pretexts to disenfranchise people in the following areas, because they don't vote for us." That's pretty much what the whole mess in North Carolina was all about. We're not guessing at their intentions.
I'm sure there are a number potential voters here and there who get screwed by all this, but from what I can tell it's not a high number. Further many of these people might not have even bothered to vote had the Democrats not been spurred into action by the GOPs efforts. So it's even possible those efforts actually are counter productive in the long run.
We're talking about closing polling places, increasing the difficulties in getting IDs that are required to vote, and, in some cases, (see NC-9 in 2018) actively hiring people to steal votes and destroy them or fill them out fraudulently. You can't "help someone with paperwork" your way around there only being one polling station open for half the town, leading to massive lines. Nor can you help an entire town when the local DMV was closed, leading to people there not being able to get the ID that's now required for some reason, even though utility bills or tribal ID cards always used to be acceptable.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Highway »

I also think it's extremely disingenuous to "both sides" this issue when it's not like a Coke or Pepsi preference thing, it's a "one side is trying to keep people from a Constitutionally-protected right to participate in their country's governance." It might be a different story if there was actually any evidence that 1) the voting fraud that's being alleged is actually happening (the ones that they end up pointing to are usually a few people who are not sure which precinct they're actually supposed to vote in, who then submit their legally allowed provisional ballots pending the verification of their eligibility) or 2) that the remedies being proposed are actually going to address the fraud that they allege is so rampant yet there isn't actually any evidence of it, even with human shitstains like Kris Kobach running a whole federal bureaucracy to try to uncover it.

The results of their actions show what they think when they make a highly restrictive voter ID law, and then close down DMV's in only the poor counties. When they close down the voting stations to far fewer per population count in poor or minority areas but not the ones where they want to keep people voting.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Jennifer »

Shem wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 14:28
Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 13:56
I can't know what other people actually think. I'm only concerned about the results of their actions.
Are you actively following any of this in the news, or just basing your opinions off whatever information you've picked up in the background?
Potentially relevant discussion from two months ago:
Painboy wrote:
02 Feb 2020, 21:14
Jennifer wrote:
02 Feb 2020, 20:22
Painboy wrote:
02 Feb 2020, 17:57
If voter suppression was that effective I suspect the Democratic party would be far more active in working to counter it and you'd hear a lot more about it. So while morally I don't like it, practically I don't think it has much effect.
That sounds like a vague target indeed-- the news coverage that already exists (much of which has been discussed here over the past couple years) is not sufficient for you to think this is a real issue? What, do you think all the previous reports were just, like, made up? Or does "you'd hear a lot more about it" mean that, like, even Fox News,the National Review and other right-of-center news sites would stop their Democrats-bashing just long enough to report "In this one instance, the Blues were right to complain?"
News stories are not a good way to judge the level of frequency of something. See the breathless coverage of the mass shooting "epidemic."

The Democratic party aren't all a bunch of idiots. As a party, winning elections is it's primary purpose. If this was such a major problem they would be devoting far more resources to combat it.
Jennifer wrote:
02 Feb 2020, 23:58
In Georgia, there have been so many lawsuits about voter suppression that the state attorney general is starting to complain about the cost of defending against them.

EDIT: Much-later html/typo fix.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Painboy »

Shem wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 14:28
Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 13:56
I can't know what other people actually think. I'm only concerned about the results of their actions.
Are you actively following any of this in the news, or just basing your opinions off whatever information you've picked up in the background? Because you're doing the "how can we possibly know why they're doing what they're doing‽" song and dance, but we have actual documentation from court cases with them saying "we can use the following methods as pretexts to disenfranchise people in the following areas, because they don't vote for us." That's pretty much what the whole mess in North Carolina was all about. We're not guessing at their intentions.
You keep bringing up motivations like they mean anything. Only someone's actions and how they affect the world around them matter when talking about politics. There's lots of people who have done horrible things with the best of intentions. Just as good policy can sometimes come from those merely trying to profit themselves, even if only by happenstance.
We're talking about closing polling places, increasing the difficulties in getting IDs that are required to vote, and, in some cases, (see NC-9 in 2018) actively hiring people to steal votes and destroy them or fill them out fraudulently. You can't "help someone with paperwork" your way around there only being one polling station open for half the town, leading to massive lines. Nor can you help an entire town when the local DMV was closed, leading to people there not being able to get the ID that's now required for some reason, even though utility bills or tribal ID cards always used to be acceptable.
Do you have some citation that actually puts a number to that? How many people are affected by this? I'm more than happy to eat crow about this but I haven't seen anything that says there is any politically significant scale to this. Like does this swing whole political movements and determine a wide range of policies?

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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Shem »

Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 21:17
Do you have some citation that actually puts a number to that? How many people are affected by this? I'm more than happy to eat crow about this but I haven't seen anything that says there is any politically significant scale to this. Like does this swing whole political movements and determine a wide range of policies?
Well, like I noted above, it probably cost the Democrats the election in NC-9 in 2018. The Republican won by 905 votes after they stole at least a thousand votes via fraud and theft. What precisely do you base your opinion that it's meaningless on?
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by thoreau »

Also, IIRC, in GOP-controlled swing states we often hear of very long lines to vote in black neighborhoods. Not everyone can stand in line for 4 hours to vote, and some of those swing states are damn close...

And if Brian Kemp's cheating didn't matter in 2018, it wasn't for lack of trying on his part.

Plus, in the end, motives DO matter because election laws aren't made in isolation. A legislative majority that explicitly tries to suppress turnout by black voters isn't going to otherwise treat them as citizens with the same rights and dignity as everyone else in the state.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

It's probably true that in Richard Daley Sr's Chicago death was no impediment to voting and that ballot stuffing may have tipped the scales to elect Kennedy and the Republicans have never forgotten it. But I will repeat that I hear over and over from my Republican friends how Democrats are stealing elections left and right stuffing ballot box with votes from dead people, illegal immigrants, children, family pets, anything. And whenever I ask for evidence and why the hell haven't they done something about it when they had full control of Congress and the White House and all I get are crickets.

So, how many outcome-determinative acts of voter suppression by Republicans have cost Democrats elections? I don't know, but they don't even pretend they're not trying to keep poor people and minorities from voting, they just insist they want to ensure that no one votes who's ineligible and then they try to make it more and more difficult to get adequate identification, more and more difficult to get to polling places, etc.

I don't doubt for a second the Dems would stuff ballot boxes if they could get away with it. I just haven't seen any evidence they're actually doing so except in trivial numbers, but it's not only easy to see Republican efforts to suppress votes, every once in a while they forget themselves and flat out admit it.

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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by lunchstealer »

Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 21:17
You keep bringing up motivations like they mean anything. Only someone's actions and how they affect the world around them matter when talking about politics.
This doesn't just apply to politics. It's universal.

If someone tries to kill you but isn't successful, you should continue to treat them exactly the same way as anyone else. If they haven't succeeded so far, they never ever will, so what they've spent years trying to do is completely irrelevant.
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Warren »

lunchstealer wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 03:20
Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 21:17
You keep bringing up motivations like they mean anything. Only someone's actions and how they affect the world around them matter when talking about politics.
This doesn't just apply to politics. It's universal.

If someone tries to kill you but isn't successful, you should continue to treat them exactly the same way as anyone else. If they haven't succeeded so far, they never ever will, so what they've spent years trying to do is completely irrelevant.
How have they been trying to kill you? Have they shot actual bullets at you and missed? Or do they point their finger at you and go "pew pew pew"?
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by lunchstealer »

Warren wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 12:42
lunchstealer wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 03:20
Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 21:17
You keep bringing up motivations like they mean anything. Only someone's actions and how they affect the world around them matter when talking about politics.
This doesn't just apply to politics. It's universal.

If someone tries to kill you but isn't successful, you should continue to treat them exactly the same way as anyone else. If they haven't succeeded so far, they never ever will, so what they've spent years trying to do is completely irrelevant.
How have they been trying to kill you? Have they shot actual bullets at you and missed? Or do they point their finger at you and go "pew pew pew"?
Even if GOP attempts to suppress the black vote have been as ineffectual as Painboy claims, they'd be the equivalent of taking potshots with a .38 special from 200 yards because that's the best they've been able to do without exposing themselves to danger of their own. But that doesn't mean they aren't trying to find something more effective, and doesn't mean they won't eventually succeed.
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Warren
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Re: The Right Way to View Competing Political Horrors

Post by Warren »

lunchstealer wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 12:56
Warren wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 12:42
lunchstealer wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 03:20
Painboy wrote:
05 Apr 2020, 21:17
You keep bringing up motivations like they mean anything. Only someone's actions and how they affect the world around them matter when talking about politics.
This doesn't just apply to politics. It's universal.

If someone tries to kill you but isn't successful, you should continue to treat them exactly the same way as anyone else. If they haven't succeeded so far, they never ever will, so what they've spent years trying to do is completely irrelevant.
How have they been trying to kill you? Have they shot actual bullets at you and missed? Or do they point their finger at you and go "pew pew pew"?
Even if GOP attempts to suppress the black vote have been as ineffectual as Painboy claims, they'd be the equivalent of taking potshots with a .38 special from 200 yards because that's the best they've been able to do without exposing themselves to danger of their own. But that doesn't mean they aren't trying to find something more effective, and doesn't mean they won't eventually succeed.
I really don't see it. Of all the things we have to fear from our politicians, this is way down the list. And strikes me as something to point to in order to prop up a Reps are worse than Dems predisposition.
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