Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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Warren
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren »

Yeah, I don't extend any more credibility to Jacobin than Quillette.
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Mo
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo »

JasonL wrote:To my point. I don’t believe Archie Carter would tell the truth to Jacobin if it moderated impact of his plan. Didn’t read the article but if they have emails or recordings ok, otherwise it’s just more spin.
Looks like they have actual emails.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL »

Good enough then. Not taking sides just more ... this is where we are. Zeus save us once deep fakery gets going at scale.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren »

Mo wrote: 09 Aug 2019, 14:11
JasonL wrote:To my point. I don’t believe Archie Carter would tell the truth to Jacobin if it moderated impact of his plan. Didn’t read the article but if they have emails or recordings ok, otherwise it’s just more spin.
Looks like they have actual emails.
But they haven't made them public and the snippets they did use don't indicate any deception on Quillette's part. Which one would think they would have used those passages if they existed.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau »

There are two lines that Jacobin identifies as editorial additions. One is this:
For example, it was Quillette, not Carter, that included the line, “My union friends were horrified. While these people spend hours reproaching themselves and each other, real people in America are suffering.”
To me, it sounds like a summary/preview of something from later in the article (archived here):
Joey said he had found the whole experience depressing. It wasn’t the tedium typical of meeting proceedings that bothered him—we are both active union members, so we’re used to that. What turned him off was the atmosphere. “To be honest, I didn’t understand a lot of what was said,” he told me. “It was a bunch of nerd shit. I got the gist of what they were saying but it made me cringe. Especially the part where that old dude got yelled at for being a white supremacist for using an okay sign. What was that all about?” I asked him if he’d come back to another meeting. “No thanks,” he replied.
I don't like editors who add entire sentences, but the sentence added by the editor does not seem like the editors fabricated details on their own.

Jacobin also reports on another addition:
Quillette also suggested that DSA meetings “would drag on forever in order to accommodate the neuroses of the participants and to ensure that the proceedings observed the norms of ‘inclusivity.'”
That also sounds like a summary of the overall gist of the article, and also of publicly available video. I still don't like it, but I wouldn't characterize it as an editorial fabrication.

That said, Quillette is not blameless. They committed two grave errors, IMHO:
1) They didn't verify the identity of an author writing about personal experience. That speaks to problems with fact-checking.
2) They came across an article that was too good to be true, and rather than giving it extra scrutiny they gave it little or no scrutiny.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren »

thoreau wrote: 09 Aug 2019, 14:40 That said, Quillette is not blameless. They committed two grave errors, IMHO:*
1) They didn't verify the identity of an author writing about personal experience. That speaks to problems with fact-checking.
2) They came across an article that was too good to be true, and rather than giving it extra scrutiny they gave it little or no scrutiny.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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JasonL wrote: 09 Aug 2019, 14:03 To my point. I don’t believe Archie Carter would tell the truth to Jacobin if it moderated impact of his plan. Didn’t read the article but if they have emails or recordings ok, otherwise it’s just more spin.
This strikes me as about right.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau »

FWIW, this is the editor-in-chief's response:

"saying 'socialism' where normies can hear it is wrapping a bunch of barbed wire around a bat, handing the bat to the GOP, and standing with your head in the strike zone."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by dhex »

Stress testing.

The kids these days.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b »

Oops, she wants to lawyer up:

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau »

Fuck. Suing journalists? No. Please, no.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman »

I'm a pleb and I know how well suing over mean words goes. WTF lady.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

Apparently, Quillette isn't well versed in American libel law, the First Amendment or New York Times Co. v. Sullivan. Defamation actions are far more likely to prevail in the UK, as I'm sure her "American lawyer" will advise her.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau »

D.A. Ridgely wrote:Apparently, Quillette isn't well versed in American libel law, the First Amendment or New York Times Co. v. Sullivan. Defamation actions are far more likely to prevail in the UK, as I'm sure her "American lawyer" will advise her.
Be that as it may, I'm sure that the threat of litigation will improve her relationship with American journalists.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

thoreau wrote: 13 Aug 2019, 12:45
D.A. Ridgely wrote:Apparently, Quillette isn't well versed in American libel law, the First Amendment or New York Times Co. v. Sullivan. Defamation actions are far more likely to prevail in the UK, as I'm sure her "American lawyer" will advise her.
Be that as it may, I'm sure that the threat of litigation will improve her relationship with American journalists.
I doubt most American journalists care. They're all far better informed about media law than the average U.S. citizen, let alone the average Australian. Moreover, many if not most are used to getting threatening mail, hate mail, even death threats. Of course, you're right that she's not going to score any points with U.S. journalists for that sort of threat, but I don't see that it matters much one way or the other.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau »

You're taking me too seriously. If she wants to be considered a serious contributor to the conversation, person who can take some rough and tumble debate rather than a snowflake, threatening to sue her critics will not help. That was my only point.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely »

thoreau wrote: 13 Aug 2019, 13:40 You're taking me too seriously. If she wants to be considered a serious contributor to the conversation, person who can take some rough and tumble debate rather than a snowflake, threatening to sue her critics will not help. That was my only point.
Ah, okay.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo »

Hmm Andy Ngo may not be the disinterested journalist he claims to be.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman »

Well, if this current tweet is accurate, he totally deserved to be assaulted without provocation months ago.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b »

Yeah, I'd recently encountered some material to that effect. But something, something, scary antifa.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo »

Nowhere did I say he deserves that, but seems like he doesn’t seem to have any problem with instigating violence, as long as it’s against people he doesn’t like.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman »

FIrst, I'm sorry. That was snide and you didn't say that. I apologize.

Second, I guess I agree that he's not disinterested.

I don't think he's instigating, but the claims that he's clearly biased against antifa have some merit. However, these claims and takedowns (having read eric's link, and done some googling) are just as biased against the right-wingers, and totally accepting of the idea that antifa are fine and should keep on doing what they do. I don't think he's doing great journalism, no.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b »

Dangerman wrote: 23 Aug 2019, 17:46 FIrst, I'm sorry. That was snide and you didn't say that. I apologize.

Second, I guess I agree that he's not disinterested.

I don't think he's instigating, but the claims that he's clearly biased against antifa have some merit. However, these claims and takedowns (having read eric's link, and done some googling) are just as biased against the right-wingers, and totally accepting of the idea that antifa are fine and should keep on doing what they do. I don't think he's doing great journalism, no.
I'm impressed by the degree of doublethink you fit into those few sentences. In fact, when I bother to refer to you, I'm gonna call you Doublethink from now on.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman »

So I'm unblocked and we're talking again?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren »

Heh
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