Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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Shem
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 31 Jul 2019, 15:26

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 03:24
Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:08
Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
So high socioeconomic status is positively correlated with high intelligence?
With scoring well on IQ tests, which is not the same thing. As anyone who has ever attended a Mensa meeting can attest.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Aresen » 31 Jul 2019, 15:43

Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 15:26
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 03:24
Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:08
Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
So high socioeconomic status is positively correlated with high intelligence?
With scoring well on IQ tests, which is not the same thing. As anyone who has ever attended a Mensa meeting can attest.
Attending a Mensa meeting also will convince you that scoring well on IQ tests does not correlate with social skills.
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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 15:59

Is the argument that something like general intelligence as a cognitive analog to something like general athleticism does not exist or that is isn't measured by the IQ test? I'm fine with dropping IQ as a nonsense area of study if you concede to drop every developmental, psychological, and social scientific claim with less support. We'll have unemployment to deal with but it would be a better world.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 31 Jul 2019, 16:31

JasonL wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 15:59
Is the argument that something like general intelligence as a cognitive analog to something like general athleticism does not exist or that is isn't measured by the IQ test? I'm fine with dropping IQ as a nonsense area of study if you concede to drop every developmental, psychological, and social scientific claim with less support. We'll have unemployment to deal with but it would be a better world.
There's a fundamental issue of definitions when it comes to IQ as a concept that you don't have when it comes to athleticism. IQ is cross applied in a way that other tests aren't. You wouldn't use someone's score on the 400m to assess their overall sporting potential. You might not even use it for their overall track and field potential. Because judging say, a boxer by their ability to do the 400m would be crazy. Yet, for IQ proponents, a test of logic and verbal skills is supposed to signal someone's potential for every facet of society. It's a social darwinist relic, and the sooner it's rejected in favor of more focused assessments for specific requirements, the better off everyone will be.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 31 Jul 2019, 16:35

I would not use an IQ test to select people for a job or educational track.

But if IQ scores correlated with a range of tasks, that might signal that IQ is a worthwhile object of research. There are plenty of things that are worth researching, even if they shouldn't be used for practical purposes. It's the difference between science and engineering.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 16:59

"Yet, for IQ proponents, a test of logic and verbal skills is supposed to signal someone's potential for every facet of society."

That's how some people take it and it's a mockable position as written. I will say, the idea that separate intelligences coverge to a general facility in "problem space" (to pick a term used in recent RadioLabs on G) has been tested over and over again and it keeps holding up. Spatial reasoning does not float independently of reading comprehension. It's around because it keeps holding up. It's as tested a theory as any in all of the social sciences. People just hate it as an idea.

The analogy to generalized athleticism is a decent one I think. If you go to say the NFL combine and look at performance in various physical tasks, the "big guys lumbering" 40 numbers are horrifyingly faster than some rando at comparable body weight, or even some rando guy at the gym at a similar body weight. They just have an ability to explode, hold speed, bend, remain balanced, push heavy things that is in a stunning in combination and you see a similar thing in fighting sports. Total athleticism is a thing.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Jul 2019, 20:17

Aresen wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 15:43
Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 15:26
D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 03:24
Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:08
Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
So high socioeconomic status is positively correlated with high intelligence?
With scoring well on IQ tests, which is not the same thing. As anyone who has ever attended a Mensa meeting can attest.
Attending a Mensa meeting also will convince you that scoring well on IQ tests does not correlate with social skills.
This. Of course, you can and probably have hopped on the "multiple intelligences" bandwagon, but high IQ scores together with high SAT scores, etc., positively correlate with intellectual aptitude. It doesn't take a genius to learn calculus or read Wittgenstein or understand particle physics, let alone to become a lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc., but try getting someone who routinely scores more than one or two Standard Deviations below the mean on those tests to accomplish any of those things. Ain't happening. Obviously, Mensa is filled with cab drivers and plumbers and also with insufferable university professors and lawyers and computer nerds and, if anything, membership in Mensa probably indicates a lower socioeconomic level of status or success than people with qualifying scores who don't need that sort of validation. No one ever suggested that intelligence guaranteed socioeconomic success, but they're sure as hell positively correlated and properly administered IQ tests are a reliable indication of the sort of intelligence required for most of the occupations or intellectual accomplishments I mentioned. Go ahead, get the best coaches in the world to try to get my daughter to game the test. I'm willing to bet more than you make in a year she'll never break 100 or, for that matter, score much above the high 60s / low 70s.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 08 Aug 2019, 10:53

Quillette publishes a Marxist-Leninist's critique of the DSA:

https://quillette.com/2019/08/08/dsa-is-doomed/

EDIT: They retracted it.

https://quillette.com/2019/08/08/retraction-notice/
Last edited by thoreau on 08 Aug 2019, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 08 Aug 2019, 19:43

thoreau wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 10:53
Quillette publishes a Marxist-Leninist's critique of the DSA:

https://quillette.com/2019/08/08/dsa-is-doomed/
Link is dead.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 08 Aug 2019, 19:59

I am seeing reports that Quillette got hoaxed with that article. In retrospect, some of the details were too good to be true in this blue collar socialists vs. SJW grad students story. It should have pinged on my BS detector.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 08 Aug 2019, 20:44

thoreau wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 19:59
I am seeing reports that Quillette got hoaxed with that article. In retrospect, some of the details were too good to be true in this blue collar socialists vs. SJW grad students story. It should have pinged on my BS detector.
Damn Russians are even planting phony Marxist stories now!

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 08 Aug 2019, 20:47

I assume that everyone who loved the Grievance Studies hoax will hate the Quillette DSA article hoax and vice-versa.

Personally, I salute them. It was useful to be reminded about the dangers of confirmation bias.

EDIT: Here's the retraction notice.

https://quillette.com/2019/08/08/retraction-notice/
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 02:26

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 07:40

“After it appeared, we got a tip that it contained false information.”

That’s an interesting way to put, “We were getting dragged online for obvious inconsistencies.”
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 08:43

Our crack editorial investigation staff opened the twitters and unearthed what seemed to be a conspiracy ...

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 08:49

We are in a spot now where there isn't much of an anchor in presumed accuracy. Everyone is making stuff up, everyone is reporting things that tell their narrative uncritically, and everyone is engaging in trolling exercises to highlight the gullibility of the other team. Something that seems new to me is the perceived stakes.

I think there are a large number of people who would do almost literally anything - I'll take murder off the table tentatively - but almost anything else if they thought it would get rid of this president.

I think there are a large number of people who would do almost anything to preserve this presidency in the face of such attacks.

I can't remember ever thinking that before.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 09:37

I don't think this incident has much to do with opinions about Trump.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 12:29

The comment is more about the conditions under which dude decided to engage in the troll in the first place, which I do think is related to the fake news gestalt.

ETA: the existence of Quillette is an aspect of what I'm talking about too.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 12:46

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 12:29
The comment is more about the conditions under which dude decided to engage in the troll in the first place, which I do think is related to the fake news gestalt.

ETA: the existence of Quillette is an aspect of what I'm talking about too.
Elaborate on what you mean. Hoaxing and then revealing the hoax is very different from spreading fake news with the goal of getting people to believe it. This guy didn't spread fake news about Quillette, he spread accurate news: Quillette's fact-checking is inadequate, and he demonstrated that. The fake news was about DSA, it was short-lived, and it was used to spread accurate (but perhaps unethically acquired, depending on your value judgments) news about Quillette.

And how is the existence of Quillette related to the fake news gestalt? Quillette's fact-checking clearly needs to improve, and they clearly write with a slant, but media outlets with a slant pre-date the 2016 rise of the "fake news" slogan by quite a bit. Newspapers with names like "Democrat-Gazette" existed in the 19th century, FFS.

Like or dislike Quillette, but I see them aspiring to occupy a niche akin to National Review, Reason, or The Nation, not a troll farm knowingly fabricating misinformation.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 13:03

How to put this, I agree that Quillette is not trying to fabricate and spread misinformation. I'm saying it came into being in an environment where there is nothing other than advocacy journalism. Some outlets don't try to represent themselves as anything other than advocacy and therefore kinda so what. Oh no, Jacobin said a bunch of wrong stuff about businesses. Duh.

Other outlets are representing themselves sources of information, less biased than those other places you can get news. The game there is not fabrication, but oftentimes embarrassing low standards for a story that cuts in favor of a narrative they endorse, plus spiking stories that don't sound like that. Within this framework are activists trying to expose the activism of the other side's media as a way of suggesting "their whole narrative works like this".

I'm saying that the trump moment has made everyone so defensive of their narratives that there can be no presumption of "basically fact checked" in issues that have political importance, which is every issue. I think in terms of credibility and it's all black eyes as far as you can see in the media landscape.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 09 Aug 2019, 13:08

JasonL wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:03
How to put this, I agree that Quillette is not trying to fabricate and spread misinformation. I'm saying it came into being in an environment where there is nothing other than advocacy journalism. Some outlets don't try to represent themselves as anything other than advocacy and therefore kinda so what. Oh no, Jacobin said a bunch of wrong stuff about businesses. Duh.

Other outlets are representing themselves sources of information, less biased than those other places you can get news. The game there is not fabrication, but oftentimes embarrassing low standards for a story that cuts in favor of a narrative they endorse, plus spiking stories that don't sound like that. Within this framework are activists trying to expose the activism of the other side's media as a way of suggesting "their whole narrative works like this".

I'm saying that the trump moment has made everyone so defensive of their narratives that there can be no presumption of "basically fact checked" in issues that have political importance, which is every issue. I think in terms of credibility and it's all black eyes as far as you can see in the media landscape.
Yes. Exactly this. This is what I'm seeing.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 13:26

The Quillette editor explicitly told “Archie” to add in details that said editor made up.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 09 Aug 2019, 13:27

Mo wrote:
09 Aug 2019, 13:26
The Quillette editor explicitly told “Archie” to add in details that said editor made up.
I wasn't aware of this. Where did you see it?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 09 Aug 2019, 13:31

The other coverage of this at Jacobin.

“For example, it was Quillette, not Carter, that included the line, “My union friends were horrified. While these people spend hours reproaching themselves and each other, real people in America are suffering.”

Quillette also suggested that DSA meetings “would drag on forever in order to accommodate the neuroses of the participants and to ensure that the proceedings observed the norms of ‘inclusivity.'””

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/08/arch ... llette-dsa
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 09 Aug 2019, 14:03

To my point. I don’t believe Archie Carter would tell the truth to Jacobin if it moderated impact of his plan. Didn’t read the article but if they have emails or recordings ok, otherwise it’s just more spin.

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