Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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thoreau
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 15 Jun 2019, 19:48

Kolohe wrote:
dhex wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 11:16
Don't forget STEAM and STREAM.
My wife's school does STEAM. I hadn't heard of STREAM until just right now. Looked it up, and said 'really?'
STREAM should not be crossed. It would be bad.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by dhex » 15 Jun 2019, 20:18

The correct response to STREAM is always "really?"

the only thing religious orgs engineer is rapist convoys.
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D.A. Ridgely
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 15 Jun 2019, 21:19

dhex wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 20:18
The correct response to STREAM is always "really?"

the only thing religious orgs engineer is rapist convoys.
So, not counting cathedrals?

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Andrew » 16 Jun 2019, 08:31

dhex wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 20:18

the only thing religious orgs engineer is rapist convoys.
That does explain why the Rubber Duck didn't want to stop for the Smokeys.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by dhex » 16 Jun 2019, 08:43

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 21:19
dhex wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 20:18
The correct response to STREAM is always "really?"

the only thing religious orgs engineer is rapist convoys.
So, not counting cathedrals?
They're waystations on the kidfuckers underground railroad.
"i ran over the cat and didnt stop just carried on with tears in my eyes joose driving my way to work." - God

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 16 Jun 2019, 12:42

Andrew wrote:
16 Jun 2019, 08:31
dhex wrote:
15 Jun 2019, 20:18

the only thing religious orgs engineer is rapist convoys.
That does explain why the Rubber Duck didn't want to stop for the Smokeys.
Whole new life
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Like a rocket sled on rails.
We tore up all of our swindle sheets,
And left 'em settin' on the scales.
By the time we hit that Chi-town,
Them bears was a-gettin' smart:
They'd brought up some reinforcements
From the Illinois National Guard.
There's armored cars, and tanks, and jeeps,
And rigs of ev'ry size.
Yeah, them chicken coops was full'a bears
And choppers filled the skies.
Well, we shot the line and we went for broke
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Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by lunchstealer » 30 Jul 2019, 18:37



‘Stereotype accuracy denial’ is apparently the new progressive science denialism if you order all your intellectualism off the dark web.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 30 Jul 2019, 18:49

So, if I think IQ is about as scientific as a Myers-Briggs Test (and almost as useful in determining future success) does that make me an "IQ denier," or just "someone with a low tolerance for pseudoscientific bullshit?"
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Jul 2019, 18:50

...And outside of the New Age woo-gatherers, who on the Left denies evolution?

Or maybe he mean evo psych, along with the sex differences/heredity dog-whistling...
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 30 Jul 2019, 20:54

Two things:
1) My understanding is that, at least initially, "stereotype accuracy" was not about going out and using stereotypes, but rather it was about researching how it is that people form crude heuristics that have (as they say) "a kernel of truth." Because, let's face it, many (not all) stereotypes are rooted in something, and while they're shitty for judging individuals, they do reflect patterns. And psychologists want to study how humans observe, process, and use information on patterns.

Doesn't mean you should judge an individual based on stereotypes (there are in fact vegans in Texas and carnivores in San Francisco), but you shouldn't be shocked if data shows that Bay Area denizens buy more vegan food than Texans. You shouldn't be shocked if a conference of orthopedic surgeons has a lot of jocks and a conference of psychiatrists has a bunch of bookworms (but you also shouldn't be shocked if some of those psychiatrists love sports and some of those surgeons are avid readers).

Lee Jussim wrote an interesting book about this.

2) Regarding IQ and other cognitive tests, they correlate with too many things to mean nothing. They don't mean everything, and I wouldn't judge an individual based on one test, but if you gave me a roomful of kids with high IQ scores and I couldn't get any of them to learn physics then you should probably review my performance. Conversely, if you gave me a roomful of kids with low IQ scores and only a few of them learned physics, well, maybe it's not all my fault.

Mind you, I wouldn't accept or reject a student based solely on a score. I'd look at the total package. Any individual can exceed or fall short of expectations. But if the scores of incoming classes declined while other traits were held constant, and then the graduation rate started declining in the aggregate, it wouldn't take a deep investigation to figure out why.
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Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 30 Jul 2019, 21:15

I get IQ is a modest but greater than coin flip predictor of life success but if you think it’s low correlated with nearly every way we’ve tried to measure cognitive ability you are high.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 30 Jul 2019, 21:47

JasonL wrote:I get IQ is a modest but greater than coin flip predictor of life success but if you think it’s low correlated with nearly every way we’ve tried to measure cognitive ability you are high.
You saying it isn't correlated at all, or the correlation is high rather than low?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 30 Jul 2019, 21:58

Yeah that was word salad. I was saying the correlation is high with performance on a vast majority of cognitive ability measures and to deny that is not great.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 30 Jul 2019, 21:58

Yeah that was word salad. I was saying the correlation is high with performance on a vast majority of cognitive ability measures and to deny that is not great.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Jul 2019, 21:59

Why do I feel dubious that "stereotype accuracy" as used by this guy has anything to do with where the vegans at?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 30 Jul 2019, 23:53

thoreau wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 20:54
2) Regarding IQ and other cognitive tests, they correlate with too many things to mean nothing. They don't mean everything, and I wouldn't judge an individual based on one test, but if you gave me a roomful of kids with high IQ scores and I couldn't get any of them to learn physics then you should probably review my performance. Conversely, if you gave me a roomful of kids with low IQ scores and only a few of them learned physics, well, maybe it's not all my fault.
It's bullshit because it's not actually an aptitude test. It is absolutely and completely possible to improve your score on an IQ test by practicing the language and logic skills that constitute the test. I know this because I did it; I was given regular IQ tests as a child, and my scores improved even controlling for age. Saying "a roomful of kids with high IQs can be taught physics" is about as meaningful as saying "a roomful of kids who aced algebra can be taught trig." It's both completely accurate and totally unhelpful in assessing potential. And if it can't access potential, if it's as possible to improve your score in it than in anything else, then it's pointless to administer, and the people trying to make it into a marker of potential are only a few steps better than phrenologists.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jadagul » 31 Jul 2019, 01:00

While acknowledging that you had the experience you had, in general scores on IQ tests and also on tests like the SAT are pretty stable, and pretty predictive. (I'll accept your claim that it's "as easy to improve your score in IQ as in anything else" if you'll concede that it's not actually that easy to improve your score in anything else, either.)

It's a really open question whether the thing they are measuring corresponds to a discrete object in the world; IQ tests can easily be measuring some medley of distinct traits including a certain amount of preparedness. But they're definitely measuring something, in that test-retest validity is pretty high and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 31 Jul 2019, 01:08

Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jadagul » 31 Jul 2019, 01:20

If you think that IQ tests have the sort of predictive power that parental socioeconomic status does, I find that hard to square with your claim that they're no more predictive or scientific than Myers-Briggs. Do you think that studying socioeconomic status is unscientific?

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 31 Jul 2019, 01:31

It may very well be that IQ scores measure nurture far more than nature. However, if neuroplasticity declines with age then at some point a lot of nurture is "baked in." The person you have in front of you is not going to be easily changed, so the question is whether training them for something will be straightforward or require Herculean effort.

Herculean effort is more appealing to me than you might think, but I need some way of knowing that the students will reciprocate. Overcoming a couple decades of nurture cannot be done in 3 hours/week for 15 weeks with 30 other people in the room. It's more like a coaching relationship, and coaching work is structured very differently from professorial work. Give me the hours commitments that coaches get from athletes and I'll be on campus all night running people through math drills. But I can't get those commitments.

Look at the military: They take people from a reasonably broad range of socioeconomic backgrounds, and have far more control than I'll ever have over how trainees spend their time both during and after class. Nonetheless, they use tests to figure out who's likely to be trainable for a given task. They can literally stand over someone, forbid them to have fun at night, confine them to a room with books and nothing else, and then yell at them if they don't study. That's a million times more control than I'll ever have over a student. Yet they don't just take any and all comers and say "Yeah, we'll totally train you for the most technologically sophisticated roles. No problem. Motivation and teamwork is all it takes." They know that certain things really are, if not fixed, then at least close to it, by the age of 18 (Carol Dweck's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding).
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 31 Jul 2019, 03:24

Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:08
Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
So high socioeconomic status is positively correlated with high intelligence? What an astonishing yet intuitively obvious thought!

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Andrew » 31 Jul 2019, 07:37

Stereotypes are a real time-saver.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2019, 09:03

thoreau wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 20:54
1) My understanding is that, at least initially, "stereotype accuracy" was not about going out and using stereotypes, but rather it was about researching how it is that people form crude heuristics that have (as they say) "a kernel of truth." Because, let's face it, many (not all) stereotypes are rooted in something, and while they're shitty for judging individuals, they do reflect patterns. And psychologists want to study how humans observe, process, and use information on patterns.

Doesn't mean you should judge an individual based on stereotypes (there are in fact vegans in Texas and carnivores in San Francisco), but you shouldn't be shocked if data shows that Bay Area denizens buy more vegan food than Texans. You shouldn't be shocked if a conference of orthopedic surgeons has a lot of jocks and a conference of psychiatrists has a bunch of bookworms (but you also shouldn't be shocked if some of those psychiatrists love sports and some of those surgeons are avid readers).

Lee Jussim wrote an interesting book about this.
I don't think the people that deny "stereotype accuracy" are denying things like "kids know less than adults" or "if you need to ask for directions in Mumbai, ask a random Indian dude instead of a random Brit." They tend to dispute more Amy Wax-ish type stereotypes or things like contradictory stereotypes (e.g. Mexicans are lazy/stealing all our jobs). The conversation around stereotype accuracy is classic motte and bailey type stuff.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 31 Jul 2019, 09:04

D.A. Ridgely wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 03:24
Shem wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:08
Jadagul wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 01:00
and the score is also predictive of a bunch of other shit.
So is your parents' socioeconomic status. Interestingly enough, their status is also predictive of your score on an IQ test. Funny, that.
So high socioeconomic status is positively correlated with high intelligence? What an astonishing yet intuitively obvious thought!
I would love to see studies on this looking at the offspring of lottery winners or other, non-genetic, windfall recipients.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 31 Jul 2019, 09:17

Nearly 70% of lottery or windfall recipients go broke within a decade, so I'm not sure you'd even be able to test it that way.

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