Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 19:42

Jennifer wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 17:57
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 14:39
I guess this was your attempt to put up; fair enough. I can't speak to what's wrong with you, whether you're a self-centered asshat, amazingly clueless, or actually a racist.
Fourth option -- not defending or excusing Jason, just reminding you -- "having a tendency to ignore the actual issue in lieu of arguing whether le mot juste was used to describe it." Like, "for all the vile things Snowden exposed about the US government, the real issue here is Glenn Greenwald using the phrase 'worst nightmare' to describe how the government would react if ALL that info got out."
I'd be inclined to group that under "asshat", but taking it from asshattery to declaring that one sees see no difference between "A issue is more important than B issue in this story, so it helps to use some good judgement in how you present talking about B among people who aren't beeping robots and may in fact be angry/upset about A" and "nooooo, how dare you talk about B", no matter how I explain or disclaim that, no matter that he's an adult in 2019? I don't know his motivations, care about them, or have time for them. He can find someone else to accuse and snipe at, because he's no longer got my attention.
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Dangerman
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman » 05 Jun 2019, 19:52

lunchstealer wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 17:45
Huh. Forty six days.
Since?

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Dangerman
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman » 05 Jun 2019, 19:52

I don't know why Jason would need defending or excusing, since he hasn't demonstrated any bad behavior.

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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 19:53

The margins of how you set the first thing make it indistinguishable from the second thing. I want to be able to say “sorry that’s just wrong” in cases like this, which is kind of how that article scanned, and I want to say “fuck you thats absurd” in many many other cases.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 17:26

Regarding the question of whether Ess Jay Doubleyous or Christian traditionalists are the bigger threat to freedom these days: a district attorney in Tennessee has announced that he will not prosecute gay-married folks who break domestic violence laws because, quote "DAs have what’s called prosecutorial discretion. We can choose to prosecute anything, or we can choose not to prosecute anything up to and including murder. It’s our choice. … To deal with that, you elect a good Christian DA. There’s no marriage to protect with homosexual relationships, so I don’t prosecute them as domestic." And of course we've all seen such stories as 'Devout Christian pharmacist refuses to fill prescriptions for birth control pills because he doesn't think the woman deserves them."

Has there been a similar rash of, say, SJW prosecutors refusing to go after people who assault heterosexual white men? Or SJW pharmacists who refuse to fill Viagra prescriptions in the name of fighting the patriarchy? If so, it appears that Fake News Media Trump and the white supremacists keep ranting about has been suppressing these stories.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... i5FIYiQcJk
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 06 Jun 2019, 17:28

It's not a competition. Two things can be shitty.

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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 17:46

JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 17:28
It's not a competition. Two things can be shitty.
No doubt, but one type of shittiness can have more actual power than the other. Which is why I maintain that Christian theocrats and hardcore SJWs are not equal, in terms of "who actually threatens Americans' freedom today." I know you're extremely committed to the notion of equivalency -- Republicans and Democrats are equally bad and there's no legitimate reason to say one is currently worse than the other, theocrats and SJWs are equally bad regardless of the fact that only one group has actual political power -- but that commitment requires you to ignore an awful lot of actual real-world evidence.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 18:17

An SJW mayor in Alabama is under fire for saying (on Facebook) that the only way to solve the country's problems is to "kill out" the heterosexual white male community.

No, wait, my bad -- it's actually a Christian mayor saying we need to "kill out" the LGBT community. Christian theocrats, SJWs ... eh, same thing. No difference at all. No sirree.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... unity.html
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Jun 2019, 18:41

A suggestion: we have a few threads already with arguments over things like whether one side wanting to kill off those people is any more oppressive than the other having made it illegal to gripe about those people in a memo at the office. Maybe we can take such discussion there? I'm no less guilty of it, but it seems to be crowding out any discussion of what Thoreau wanted to talk about in the first place.
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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 18:44

Thread drift is a hell of a drug (and FWIW, if any mods want to break off this into its own subthread I'd make no objection) -- but in the other hand, isn't it kind of tied in with the whole "intellectual dark web" topic to begin with?
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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 18:47

Also, here's something I saw on Twitter more directly connected to Quillette:



"Noah Carl and Bo Winegard in Quillette in 2019 folks - whites have superior IQs and can be distinguished by *skull measurements*
I wonder why they fixate on heritable 'white' (superior) difference?" [over screenshots of article and comments]
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 Jun 2019, 18:56

Noah Carl being a Brit who's written papers saying Muslim populations are a terrorism threat and that immigrants totally live up to the worst stereotypes about them. (And fucktons of other stuff in online paper mills.)

I'm all for academic freedom, but why should anybody be expected to take seriously this sort of thing from a guy because he's an academic, when we'd otherwise just consider him a racist asshole?
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 19:22

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 18:56
Noah Carl being a Brit who's written papers saying Muslim populations are a terrorism threat and that immigrants totally live up to the worst stereotypes about them. (And fucktons of other stuff in online paper mills.)

I'm all for academic freedom, but why should anybody be expected to take seriously this sort of thing from a guy because he's an academic, when we'd otherwise just consider him a racist asshole?
Theory -- going back to "So, just what is the 'intellectual dark web' anyway" as well as "SJWs in college or theocrats in positions of political power: who's the real threat to modern American freedom?" -- perhaps a thumbnail description of the IDW is "Someone who, at least on paper, opposes merely the more extreme aspects of SJWs ... though sometimes, it seems their complaint is with the SJ more than the W, if you get my drift." To quote something Mo said upthread (rather than go through the bother of putting the same thought into my own words): "IDW is a stupid label that is poorly defined made up by Bari Weiss. Also, for all the claims of being willing to engage people they disagree with, they usually only engage with people they disagree with politically on the narrow things that they all agree upon. You don’t see guys like Shapiro and Weinstein debate abortion, instead they engage with each other on how bad SJWs are."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 20:20

Here's a May 2018 Matt Welch/Reason article "What is the intellectual dark web" which starts like this:

https://reason.com/2018/05/03/what-is-t ... -dark-web/
What is the "Intellectual Dark Web"? The technical answer might be, "A phrase coined by mathematician and Thiel Capital Managing Director Eric Weinstein to describe a loose confederation of left-right intellectuals who share in common an open, occasionally career-altering defiance of the 'gated institutional narrative' enforced by media/academia/Hollywood, particularly as concerns identity politics."

Vanity Fair writer Tina Nguyen is getting criticized this week by IDW types for a piece connecting ideological traveler Kanye West to the movement, which she characterizes as being "comprised of right-wing pundits, agnostic comedian podcasters, self-help gurus, and disgruntled ex-liberals united by their desire to 'red pill' new adherents." More charitably, L.A. Times columnist Meghan Daum contends that dark-webbers "wish to foster a new discourse that can allow innovative thinkers to wrestle with the world's problems without having to tiptoe around subjects or questions deemed culturally or politically off-limits."
Of course that last bit sounds good on its face -- of course we should "allow innovative thinkers to wrestle with the world's problems without having to tiptoe around subjects or questions deemed culturally or politically off-limits" -- but on the other hand, not all off-limits topics are created equal. (For that matter, not all "identity politics" are created equal, either -- and among at least some IDW-types (but #NotAllIDWs, I guess), there does seem to be deliberate confusion/conflation about it. Like among black Americans protesting police abuse of black Americans, are they "engaged in identity politics" which is presumably bad, or are they protesting a legitimate injustice that disproportionately affects them? Naturally I lean toward the latter interpretation.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 20:24

Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.

https://spectator .us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/
Why don’t these black children matter to ‘racial justice’ activists? Because without exception, their killers are also known or believed to be black.
Last edited by Jennifer on 07 Jun 2019, 00:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 06 Jun 2019, 20:29

Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 17:46
JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 17:28
It's not a competition. Two things can be shitty.
No doubt, but one type of shittiness can have more actual power than the other. Which is why I maintain that Christian theocrats and hardcore SJWs are not equal, in terms of "who actually threatens Americans' freedom today." I know you're extremely committed to the notion of equivalency -- Republicans and Democrats are equally bad and there's no legitimate reason to say one is currently worse than the other, theocrats and SJWs are equally bad regardless of the fact that only one group has actual political power -- but that commitment requires you to ignore an awful lot of actual real-world evidence.
Last post on this here for clarity. This is an inaccurate description of my views. I actually think the notion of equally bad doesn't mean very much. I think one side is dramatically worse than the other on speech growth destructive policies and the other is dramatically worse on immigration and civil liberties. What I insist on is I don't have to apologize through every dimension of suffering to focus on one kind of shittiness. Fair enough lets recuse to another thread on this though.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 06 Jun 2019, 20:30

Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.

https://spectator .us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/https://spectator.us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/
Why don’t these black children matter to ‘racial justice’ activists? Because without exception, their killers are also known or believed to be black.
That is not an out of bounds kind of argument to have. There are better and worse framings of it.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 20:41

Reason says Sam Harris is another IDW member. [Googles] Huh.
Sam Harris wrote:The gravity of Jewish suffering over the ages, culminating in the Holocaust, makes it almost impossible to entertain any suggestion that Jews might have brought their troubles upon themselves. This is, however, in a rather narrow sense, the truth. […] the ideology of Judaism remains a lightning rod for intolerance to this day. […] Jews, insofar as they are religious, believe that they are bearers of a unique covenant with God. As a consequence, they have spent the last two thousand years collaborating with those who see them as different by seeing themselves as irretrievably so...
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 20:50

JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:30
Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.

https://spectator .us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/https://spectator.us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/
Why don’t these black children matter to ‘racial justice’ activists? Because without exception, their killers are also known or believed to be black.
That is not an out of bounds kind of argument to have. There are better and worse framings of it.
Any one individual argument, taken alone, might be okay. But combine enough individual trees and you end up with a forest. Remember a few years ago, when John Derbyshire (IIRC) got fired from National Review for writing that piece about why white people need to be extra-suspicious and distrusting around black folks? Some of the individual pieces of advice he gave could stand alone as useful and not-racist advice -- like, there are certain neighborhoods in Atlanta about which I personally would tell you "No, you should avoid driving there, especially if you have a nice car" and it so happens those neighborhoods are majority black ... but, y'know, I'd give you the same advice about driving through certain majority white methbilly neighborhoods too, and in neither case do I believe it says something specific about the skin tone of the neighborhood residents. But Derbyshire did. (Not to mention the HUGE distinction between "Avoid this one high-crime neighborhood, which happens to be mainly black"and "Avoid ALL majority-black neighborhoods. It's safer around white folks.")

To put it another way: I think most of us here are opposed to "affirmative action" for reasons that are anti-racist: basically, we say people should be judged as individuals, rather than face racial quotas or whatever. There are also racist shitheads like David Duke and Don Black who oppose AA for reasons that are explicitly racist: we don't wanna live or work or be around black people. So, the mere fact that one is opposed to "affirmative action" doesn't necessarily mean one is racist -- but if that anti-AA person pals around or co-publishes with the likes of David Duke and Don Black, it looks a lot more likely.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 06 Jun 2019, 21:03

I think you take each argument and each writer in kind for that evaluation.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 21:20

JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 21:03
I think you take each argument and each writer in kind for that evaluation.
[Scrolls through Ngo's Twitter feed] Let's see: news articles about "antifa" behaving badly; an article about a Muslim woman originally from Bangladesh sentenced for attempted murder of a non-Muslim in Australia, the "Canadian treatment of indiginous people is not genocide" debate mentioned upthread, tweets of college lefties protesting college republicans; a tweet promoting his appearance on Ben Shapiro's show ... I haven't the time of inclination to scroll through all 8,000+ tweets, but a cursory search of tweets he posted with the word "Muslim" all focus on crimes Muslims committed against non-Muslims. A more refined search for tweets he made containing the word "Muslims" and "Trump" includes several news stories about Muslims being dishonest or jerkish in their protests against Trump's Muslim ban, and also this:
The Trump administration is pushing for the Muslim Brotherhood to be designated a terrorist organization. The Islamist movement has varying ties to extremism, including individuals, radical ideologues & groups like Hamas. Some saying this move will target civil rights of Muslims.
Did another search for tweets he made mentioning "Black Lives Matter": all examples of how dreadful BLM people are. OMG, some of them are even Commies!



If he ever wrote/tweeted anything to the effect of "Y'know, at least some of those BLM activists have a valid point," or "Some concerns American MusIims have about their civil rights are valid," I can't find it.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 06 Jun 2019, 21:34

On a related note: there's nothing anti-Semitic about criticizing a criminal who happens to be Jewish (fuck you, Bernie Madoff), and there's nothing inherently anti-Semitic about disliking a colleague or neighbor who happens to be Jewish ... but if the only things you EVER say or tweet or mention about Jewish people are "Here's a dreadful crime committed by a Jew" and "behold this video of a Jew being a totally rude asshole to non-Jews" and "Oh, look, another crime committed by a Jewish fanatic" and "yet another Jewish colleague o'mine turns out to be an asshole, quelle surprise" ... yeah, dude's probably an anti-Semite, and I'm not going to partner with him even though we DO agree that what Bernie Madoff did was despicable.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 05:02

JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:30
Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.

https://spectator .us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/https://spectator.us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/
Why don’t these black children matter to ‘racial justice’ activists? Because without exception, their killers are also known or believed to be black.
That is not an out of bounds kind of argument to have. There are better and worse framings of it.
It's actually pretty terribly addressed issue and says more about the author than the subject. The proper way to look at it is why certain crimes get more media attention than others, despite nearly identical facts. Why are the only child abuse cases that get attention the ones where there are large organizations behind them? Also, if race hustling explains media coverage, it doesn't explain the missing white girl getting media coverage, while missing minority kids gets less. Same with why the coverage of people who get killed by illegal immigrants leans toward the white women who are killed rather than people in their own communities. Hate crimes are rare and shocking, street crimes are common. Man bites dog hits the news.

Here is something similar, but how people actually die vs. how deaths are reported. That is an interesting discussion. I think it's wrongheaded because by the same logic, if you were to judge what people did by what was in the news, you would think the world was filled with senior management and national leaders instead of housekeepers, janitors truck drivers and fast food workers.

The problem is when all you have is the anti-SJW hammer, all you see are SJW nails.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 05:05

JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:29
Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 17:46
JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 17:28
It's not a competition. Two things can be shitty.
No doubt, but one type of shittiness can have more actual power than the other. Which is why I maintain that Christian theocrats and hardcore SJWs are not equal, in terms of "who actually threatens Americans' freedom today." I know you're extremely committed to the notion of equivalency -- Republicans and Democrats are equally bad and there's no legitimate reason to say one is currently worse than the other, theocrats and SJWs are equally bad regardless of the fact that only one group has actual political power -- but that commitment requires you to ignore an awful lot of actual real-world evidence.
Last post on this here for clarity. This is an inaccurate description of my views. I actually think the notion of equally bad doesn't mean very much. I think one side is dramatically worse than the other on speech growth destructive policies and the other is dramatically worse on immigration and civil liberties. What I insist on is I don't have to apologize through every dimension of suffering to focus on one kind of shittiness. Fair enough lets recuse to another thread on this though.
So the side that is trying to legislatively impose the fairness doctrine on social media is the better one on free speech?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 06:41

Yes. I’m saying the left is that bad.

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