Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Jun 2019, 22:30

Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 22:03
Huh? No that's not true at all. The misuse of the word is the point of the article, but the author takes pains to acknowledge the actual tragedy.
Two sentences in the whole article, Warren. Two sentences in an article where he writes two long paragraphs about the fucking Roman emperor Caracalla. It's, like I said, a disclaimer.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 04 Jun 2019, 23:32

Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 22:30
Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 22:03
Huh? No that's not true at all. The misuse of the word is the point of the article, but the author takes pains to acknowledge the actual tragedy.
Two sentences in the whole article, Warren. Two sentences in an article where he writes two long paragraphs about the fucking Roman emperor Caracalla. It's, like I said, a disclaimer.
Yeah, the point of the article is about the degradation of the word. That doesn't make it "tone deaf". What you're saying is that greater tragedy trumps a lesser story. So no one can be a food critic because that ignores the people trapped in poverty that are going hungry. No one can write a travel log because that undermines the difficulties of Syrian refugees. No one can extol the virtuosity of a musician because it's an insult to deaf people. It's a silly argument you're making. The Canadian Inquiry used the word genocide when it was nothing of the kind, and calling them out on that is not pretending that was the most important part of their report. It just isn't.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 04 Jun 2019, 23:54

Eh, I begin any discussion of genocide immediately skeptical of anyone who tries to appeal to how a government defines it as evidence that it doesn't constitute a genocide. The UN also doesn't count the Holodomor as a genocide either, even though Lemkin was specifically thinking of it as an example of genocide when he coined the term. Political exigencies led the Allies to soft-peddle the matter to please the USSR, as they do likewise constantly even today. Doesn't suddenly make it not a genocide. I prefer to compare the events on the ground to the actual definition. What makes a genocide is "...the systematic harm or killing of [a group's] members, deliberately imposing living conditions that seek to "bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", preventing births, or forcibly transferring children out of the group to another group." I would say the violence the study is talking about hits the first aspect (to say nothing of the various "wars" that the governments of the US and Canada prompted and then won), the reservation system itself (in which the areas were systematically underfunded for pretty much the entirety of their existence while the central governments of both the US and Canada did their best to prevent tribes from exercising any sort of self-determination) hits the second, and the system of sterilizations and Indian schools used during the first half of the 20th century hits the third. And that's before you get into stuff like forced suppression of their languages and traditional modes of living in order to "civilize" the tribal members, or the expropriation of lands both to serve the needs of non-tribal members and/or to shape the tribe into a western system of land ownership rather than the systems they had traditionally used, which aren't necessarily part of the direct definition of genocide, but definitely count as ethnic cleansing. By my reckoning, that pretty much hits all the "genocide" buttons. Given that, it's a little hard to see his argument as being anything other than a rather pedantic attempt to miss the forest for the trees.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 05 Jun 2019, 00:07

Also, back on a previous discussion, I had to do my yearly "HR for supervisors" training the other day, and I realized something about the sort of drives to punish Jason was talking about. They exist and are a thing, but they have jack to do with SJWs or anyone else in the larger society. The drive to define harassment and the like in ever-shrinking circles that catch greater and greater numbers people is a consequence of the laws leaving managers directly and civilly responsible for harassment that goes unaddressed. The HR guy who did it for us was very clear that while we are free to exercise our judgement, if we engage in a high-risk activity and get accused of something, we will receive zero support from the agency in defending ourselves. This goes even if it was an ambiguous situation that we failed to report. There's zero good-faith exception in the rules. In a circumstance like that, you're going to wind up with people self-policing and enforcing the laws in a draconian manner, just to make sure their ass is covered. And, the reason we're suddenly having a crackdown is because the previous Commissioner had a #metoo moment, and the senior leadership defended him even after it was clear what he was doing. The activists make a convenient scapegoat, but their ultimately just a symptom of the real problem; leaders ignoring the issues until they become so intolerable that the situation explodes.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 00:26

Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 23:32
Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 22:30
Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 22:03
Huh? No that's not true at all. The misuse of the word is the point of the article, but the author takes pains to acknowledge the actual tragedy.
Two sentences in the whole article, Warren. Two sentences in an article where he writes two long paragraphs about the fucking Roman emperor Caracalla. It's, like I said, a disclaimer.
Yeah, the point of the article is about the degradation of the word. That doesn't make it "tone deaf".
No, the point of the article is clearly about the misuse of this word in this one case, as it's where he spills most of his verbiage, beyond a brief mention of a silly use of "cultural genocide" prior. If he went over many incidences of "genocide" being broadly misused and skipped things like the Hurr hurr, I guess they're genociding themselves! business, it'd come across much differently.
Warren wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 23:32
What you're saying is that greater tragedy trumps a lesser story.
Nope. I'm saying the greater tragedy of the story seems a lot more important than But Aaaactually Guy's focus on the misuse of "genocide" in the story.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 00:40

Shem wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 23:54
Eh, I begin any discussion of genocide immediately skeptical of anyone who tries to appeal to how a government defines it as evidence that it doesn't constitute a genocide. The UN also doesn't count the Holodomor as a genocide either, even though Lemkin was specifically thinking of it as an example of genocide when he coined the term. Political exigencies led the Allies to soft-peddle the matter to please the USSR, as they do likewise constantly even today. Doesn't suddenly make it not a genocide.
And at the risk of being cynical, calling a genocide a "genocide" doesn't seem to accomplish much in the first place, so I don't see the terrifying risk if someone misuses it.

It's not like breathing the holy word "genocide" makes Gort the robot descend in a saucer from above to stop the killing. Oh, Canada recognized the Rwandan genocide, how nice of them. So, what did that actually mean, besides that they were especially somber when they noted that foreigners were being brutally mass-murdered?

(And it's why I roll my eyes at the, "But what about *gasp* genocide?" song-and-dance routine in discussions of non-interventionist foreign policy. Outside of Switzerland, the entire developed world has interventionist foreign policies, and they still let genocides happen.)
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 08:12

I committed genocide on a sandwich this morning.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 08:15

Cops are committing genocide on black Americans. The only valid talking point is bad things not the language.

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Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 08:17

I made tacos. Cultural genocide. Only valid talking point massacre of Aztecs

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by nicole » 05 Jun 2019, 08:49

White genocide!
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 09:01

Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.

II'm still curious about this bit you posted when literally nobody here had made more than one post on the subject in the thread:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 21:20
But, like, it isn't genocide and the people using the term should fucking stop it, though right? Because if you believe that either a) is true or b) matters at all, it does not come across in your posts.
Did you copy-and-paste that from somewhere else you were arguing this story? Facebook, another forum, etc.?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 05 Jun 2019, 09:18

Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
And we're only allowed to talk about the "'real'" crime. It doesn't matter how valid your point is if you aren't talking about the ""real"" crime.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 09:22

Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:18
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
And we're only allowed to talk about the "'real'" crime. It doesn't matter how valid your point is if you aren't talking about the ""real"" crime.
I believe that's what Jason has been saying, yes. The only thing that matters is the misuse of a holy word.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 05 Jun 2019, 09:26

Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:22
Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:18
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
And we're only allowed to talk about the "'real'" crime. It doesn't matter how valid your point is if you aren't talking about the ""real"" crime.
I believe that's what Jason has been saying, yes. The only thing that matters is the misuse of a holy word.
Why do you believe that?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 09:31

Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:22
Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:18
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
And we're only allowed to talk about the "'real'" crime. It doesn't matter how valid your point is if you aren't talking about the ""real"" crime.
I believe that's what Jason has been saying, yes. The only thing that matters is the misuse of a holy word.
Why do you believe that?
Because thousands of women have been murdered, at least partially due to racist neglect by their government, and the thing he's expressing outright agitation over in this thread is the improper use of the word "genocide" and the idea that some unspecified person (who may not even be on this site) isn't as angry about it as he is.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 05 Jun 2019, 09:36

Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:31
Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:26
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:22
Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:18
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
And we're only allowed to talk about the "'real'" crime. It doesn't matter how valid your point is if you aren't talking about the ""real"" crime.
I believe that's what Jason has been saying, yes. The only thing that matters is the misuse of a holy word.
Why do you believe that?
Because thousands of women have been murdered, at least partially due to racist neglect by their government, and the thing he's expressing outright agitation over in this thread is the improper use of the word "genocide" and the idea that some unspecified person (who may not even be on this site) isn't as angry about it as he is.
Yeaaaaah no.
He (and I) are saying the thesis of the article is correct. His agitation is (I believe) directed at you for your insistance that the thousands of murdered women means you're not allowed to talk about this perfectly obvious and meaningful thing.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 09:45

Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:18
He (and I) are saying the thesis of the article is correct. His agitation is (I believe) directed at you for your insistance that the thousands of murdered women means you're not allowed to talk about this perfectly obvious and meaningful thing.
Emphasis added.

OK, where did I say that?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 05 Jun 2019, 10:05

Here
Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 21:57
However, the tone-deaf part Is ignoring the rest of the story and thousands of dead people to go on at length about one misused word, as if that's the only important part.
here
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 00:26
I'm saying the greater tragedy of the story seems a lot more important than But Aaaactually Guy's focus on the misuse of "genocide" in the story.
here
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:01
Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.
here
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:22
I believe that's what Jason has been saying, yes. The only thing that matters is the misuse of a holy word.
and here
Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 09:31
Because thousands of women have been murdered, at least partially due to racist neglect by their government, and the thing he's expressing outright agitation over in this thread is the improper use of the word "genocide" and the idea that some unspecified person (who may not even be on this site) isn't as angry about it as he is.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 10:13

Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 10:05
Here:
So, exactly which of those do you imagine translate to my "insistance that the thousands of murdered women means you're not allowed to talk about this"? I know you're famously not a liberal arts guy, but I look at those quotes and don't see a damn thing there about what anyone's allowed to do.

What you're saying sounds more like I'm distressing you by being all unmutual and not full-throatedly approving of this article or, worse, saying someone might reasonably disapprove of it.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 10:21

All suffering is genocide.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 10:23

Eric the .5b wrote:Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.

II'm still curious about this bit you posted when literally nobody here had made more than one post on the subject in the thread:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 21:20
But, like, it isn't genocide and the people using the term should fucking stop it, though right? Because if you believe that either a) is true or b) matters at all, it does not come across in your posts.
Did you copy-and-paste that from somewhere else you were arguing this story? Facebook, another forum, etc.?
It’s your take on all SJW critical comments. What SJWs say doesn’t matter and is inconsequential so shut up and feel the suffering of oppressed people there’s nothing else worth talking about.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 10:24

JasonL wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 10:23
Eric the .5b wrote:Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.

II'm still curious about this bit you posted when literally nobody here had made more than one post on the subject in the thread:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 21:20
But, like, it isn't genocide and the people using the term should fucking stop it, though right? Because if you believe that either a) is true or b) matters at all, it does not come across in your posts.
Did you copy-and-paste that from somewhere else you were arguing this story? Facebook, another forum, etc.?
It’s your take on all SJW critical comments. What SJWs say doesn’t matter and is inconsequential so shut up and feel the suffering of oppressed people there’s nothing else worth talking about.
So, yes or no?
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Warren » 05 Jun 2019, 10:26

We're circling the drain here. I'm out *clap*
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 05 Jun 2019, 10:33

Warren wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 10:26
We're circling the drain here. I'm out *clap*
By asking you to substantiate something? Interesting route.
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 05 Jun 2019, 10:38

Eric the .5b wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 10:24
JasonL wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 10:23
Eric the .5b wrote:Right, right, Jason. The real crime's not the murdered women, it's the misuse of a word. I get it.

II'm still curious about this bit you posted when literally nobody here had made more than one post on the subject in the thread:
JasonL wrote:
04 Jun 2019, 21:20
But, like, it isn't genocide and the people using the term should fucking stop it, though right? Because if you believe that either a) is true or b) matters at all, it does not come across in your posts.
Did you copy-and-paste that from somewhere else you were arguing this story? Facebook, another forum, etc.?
It’s your take on all SJW critical comments. What SJWs say doesn’t matter and is inconsequential so shut up and feel the suffering of oppressed people there’s nothing else worth talking about.
So, yes or no?
Copy paste? No. The comment is applicable to this story - that OMG how dare you talk about the abuse of the term when there is suffering to talk about, and pretty much every other case I've ever seen you comment on SJW criticism.

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