Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 06:58

Mo wrote:
JasonL wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:30
Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.

https://spectator .us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/https://spectator.us/jazmine-barnes-black-lives-matter/
Why don’t these black children matter to ‘racial justice’ activists? Because without exception, their killers are also known or believed to be black.
That is not an out of bounds kind of argument to have. There are better and worse framings of it.
It's actually pretty terribly addressed issue and says more about the author than the subject. The proper way to look at it is why certain crimes get more media attention than others, despite nearly identical facts. Why are the only child abuse cases that get attention the ones where there are large organizations behind them? Also, if race hustling explains media coverage, it doesn't explain the missing white girl getting media coverage, while missing minority kids gets less. Same with why the coverage of people who get killed by illegal immigrants leans toward the white women who are killed rather than people in their own communities. Hate crimes are rare and shocking, street crimes are common. Man bites dog hits the news.

Here is something similar, but how people actually die vs. how deaths are reported. That is an interesting discussion. I think it's wrongheaded because by the same logic, if you were to judge what people did by what was in the news, you would think the world was filled with senior management and national leaders instead of housekeepers, janitors truck drivers and fast food workers.

The problem is when all you have is the anti-SJW hammer, all you see are SJW nails.
Yeah, we see the intentionality differently. There is man bites dog and there is the layer of interested parties pushing the narrative that man bites dog is actually the normal story. I see the case in question as fairly similar to grandstanding done by people on the right over every murder by an immigrant but dissimilar to the senior management and political leaders angle. I feel like you might be fine with a piece calling out the right for amplifying their narrative in that way but deem it out of bounds to write this piece?

Again I’m not saying it’s great, just that it’s a perfectly fine argument to make.

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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jun 2019, 07:02

JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 06:58
Again I’m not saying it’s great, just that it’s a perfectly fine argument to make.
Not in the context of discussing the Black Lives Matter movement: "Instead of complaining about police murdering y'all and getting off scot-free, why don't you focus on murders committed by people whom society and the law actually recognize as criminals?"
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Mo
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 07:23

JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 06:41
Yes. I’m saying the left is that bad.
The left is so bad the government imposing speech codes and balance on companies is not as bad? How?
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nicole
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by nicole » 07 Jun 2019, 07:35

Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.
I can assure you that the black criminals who kill black Americans here in Chicago generally get away with it, from the perspective of the criminal justice system.
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nicole
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by nicole » 07 Jun 2019, 07:37

JasonL wrote:
05 Jun 2019, 19:53
The margins of how you set the first thing make it indistinguishable from the second thing. I want to be able to say “sorry that’s just wrong” in cases like this, which is kind of how that article scanned, and I want to say “fuck you thats absurd” in many many other cases.
I agree with the Kay article and notably there was an unsigned editorial in the Globe and Mail making similar points much more effectively and concisely and the reaction was...strong.
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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 07:40

Mo wrote:
JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 06:41
Yes. I’m saying the left is that bad.
The left is so bad the government imposing speech codes and balance on companies is not as bad? How?
The left drove the need for platforms to police all content forever nothing can happen that isn’t their fault. Then the left constantly pushed do more do more. Deplatform this person or that. So now we have a regime of activist editors. It’s a shit baseline the left insisted upon.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 07:45

The platforms could have ignored. That's social pressure. The market decided not ignoring cost too much. Shit like Josh Hawley's bill means that ignoring is not an option because the enforcement comes from federal agents instead of keyboard warriors.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 07:54

I see Hawley and raise Warren and all those “platforms are utilities” motherfuckers.

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Dangerman
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Dangerman » 07 Jun 2019, 09:14

There's another YouTube Purge happening as well.

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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 09:41

It's well covered ground by now, but my view is that the fundamental essence, the animating force behind much of the left in 2019 is open warfare on speech they disapprove of. It's their tax cuts or their neocon invade people or their trumpian america first build walls - it's not a feature of getting to some larger goal, it IS the larger goal to be able to stop anyone from saying anything they dislike on any platform anywhere. I get that we don't agree on that point, but the breadth, depth and essence argument is why I'm mostly unpersuaded by this or that individual thing coming from the right.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 07 Jun 2019, 09:55

JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 09:41
It's well covered ground by now, but my view is that the fundamental essence, the animating force behind much of the left in 2019 is open warfare on speech they disapprove of.
Is that why none of the 20+ presidential candidates for the Dems have made any of the things you are complaining about the centerpiece of their campaigns? Lots of Green New Deal. Lots of Supreme Court. Increasingly huge amounts of protecting abortion rights. But the closest they come to what you're talking about regarding speech controls involves keeping Russians from posting propaganda about US elections. For something that's supposedly as important to their orthodoxy as tax cuts is to the right, there sure doesn't seem to be very much name-checking going on.
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thoreau
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 07 Jun 2019, 11:19

An interesting collection of data on the "Great Awokening":

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-a ... te-saviors

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 12:02

JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 09:41
It's well covered ground by now, but my view is that the fundamental essence, the animating force behind much of the left in 2019 is open warfare on speech they disapprove of. It's their tax cuts or their neocon invade people or their trumpian america first build walls - it's not a feature of getting to some larger goal, it IS the larger goal to be able to stop anyone from saying anything they dislike on any platform anywhere. I get that we don't agree on that point, but the breadth, depth and essence argument is why I'm mostly unpersuaded by this or that individual thing coming from the right.
You need to cut back on lefty twitter.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 12:27

Mo wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 12:02
JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 09:41
It's well covered ground by now, but my view is that the fundamental essence, the animating force behind much of the left in 2019 is open warfare on speech they disapprove of. It's their tax cuts or their neocon invade people or their trumpian america first build walls - it's not a feature of getting to some larger goal, it IS the larger goal to be able to stop anyone from saying anything they dislike on any platform anywhere. I get that we don't agree on that point, but the breadth, depth and essence argument is why I'm mostly unpersuaded by this or that individual thing coming from the right.
You need to cut back on lefty twitter.
That actually is possible. Not Twitter per se. But everyone on the left who says anything. The protesting classes, the brand police, the flavor and texture of a huge percent of left memes, everything that happens on campus, everything that happens in HR departments reacting to ... something. These things could be an outsized reaction to a minority that is super super loud. I'm pretty skeptical of that view, but it is possible. Everyone is afraid of nothing, sort of thing.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JD » 07 Jun 2019, 12:38

Mo wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 05:02
Here is something similar, but how people actually die vs. how deaths are reported. That is an interesting discussion. I think it's wrongheaded because by the same logic, if you were to judge what people did by what was in the news, you would think the world was filled with senior management and national leaders instead of housekeepers, janitors truck drivers and fast food workers.
This is actually a really interesting piece. It's not surprising in some ways, because it's the old dog-bites-man thing, but it does show how the media, intentionally or not, pushes a view of the world as being full of murderers and terrorists.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Mo » 07 Jun 2019, 12:39

JasonL wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 12:27
everything that happens in HR departments reacting to
Once again, where is this purge of non-woke happening by HR departments? Aside from Sexual Harassment Panda type trainings, where is this purge happening? The experience in my social circle is basically only the egregious cases being handled, and even in those cases, not even all egregious cases. There are some outliers like Damore, but that is mostly because the company panicked when it got a bad news and comms freaked out
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 07 Jun 2019, 13:09

Right now I've got a cow-orker sending out lots of articles about a new study of implicit bias. The opinion of some social scientists is that the effects seem unusually large, the sample size is small relative to the number of comparisons they attempt, and they built in a few features that probably make them susceptible to artifacts and outliers. But if I were to hit "reply-all" and point that out I'm pretty sure I'd be the bad guy.

I wouldn't be fired, but I might be encouraged to stop serving on a certain committee.

But I don't know if corporate workplaces would have the same dynamics. It's been repeatedly noted here that I know nothing about private sector workplaces, and even less about the market demand for public sector managers...
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JD » 07 Jun 2019, 13:51

This seemed relevant: https://www.businessinsider.com/google- ... ban-2019-6

tl;dr Some people want to ban Google from San Francisco's Pride Parade because YouTube didn't come down hard enough on a commentator who made racist and homophobic slurs against a journalist.

This is the kind of thing that I and others have noted - a kind of Maoist intolerance aimed not at real enemies (banning Google from Pride isn't going to hurt the racist, homophobic guy any) but at those who are ostensibly friendly (Google wants to be in Pride, after all) but don't tow the party lion appropriately. It says "you are either 100% with us or 100% against us", and I don't think that's a healthy attitude for civil society.
"Millennials are lazy. They'd rather have avocado toast than cave in a man's skull with a tire iron!" -FFF

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 Jun 2019, 14:58

JD wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 13:51
tl;dr Some people want to ban Google from San Francisco's Pride Parade because YouTube didn't come down hard enough on a commentator who made racist and homophobic slurs against a journalist.
"Some people" demand any kind of bullshit. This hasn't actually resulted in a ban.

Mind, if the Maoists had stuck to peacefully asserting their right to exclude people from their private gatherings, China would have had a nicer last several decades.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 Jun 2019, 15:09

And in terms of criticizing Google...it's valid. If you don't have the balls to go, "Free speech, motherfuckahs, we host anything!" and instead have terms of service, you're gonna get backlash when you ignore repeated complaints about someone's violations of those terms that piss other people off. That you reacted eventually just isn't going to mollify everyone.

ETA: And a lot of people don't see Google as "friendly", but just "that big corporation that doesn't give a fuck about anyone, but markets itself as being friendly to certain causes".
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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JasonL
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by JasonL » 07 Jun 2019, 15:23

I'm reminded somewhat of the conservative response to violations of the terms of entry to the US. One argument is the complaints are entirely valid becase these are RULE BREAKERS who make at least some segment mad. Another argument is like "the significance of the violation, or even if we even think it's material at al, should not be measured by how mad people get - those people don't have a 'valid' view because they are unhinged in their advocacy of sealed environments.

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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Shem » 07 Jun 2019, 15:58

JD wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 13:51
This is the kind of thing that I and others have noted - a kind of Maoist intolerance aimed not at real enemies (banning Google from Pride isn't going to hurt the racist, homophobic guy any) but at those who are ostensibly friendly (Google wants to be in Pride, after all) but don't tow the party lion appropriately. It says "you are either 100% with us or 100% against us", and I don't think that's a healthy attitude for civil society.
Was the otherwise completely orthodox Evangelical pastor having her books pulled from Christian bookstores and getting death threats for breaking with support of Donald Trump also "Maoist intolerance?"
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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jun 2019, 15:59

nicole wrote:
07 Jun 2019, 07:35
Jennifer wrote:
06 Jun 2019, 20:24
Huh. Quillette editor Andy Ngo co-wrote a piece in "Spectator" in January of this year: "Black lives matter, until they’re ended by black people." Basically, rather than complain about cops killing black Americans and getting away with it, y'all should complain about black criminals who kill black Americans and ... um ... don't generally get away with it, or something.
I can assure you that the black criminals who kill black Americans here in Chicago generally get away with it, from the perspective of the criminal justice system.
The same way that cops who kill black Americans get away with it? To the point where Ngo is basically justified in sneering "Hey, Black Lives Matter, before criticizing cops for murdering y'all and courts and prosecutors for getting away with it, you should complain about freelance criminals instead?"

Compare that to: "Instead of complaining about greedy cops using civil asset forfeiture to steal from innocent people, criticize burglars instead! Because I presumably believe 'freelance criminals' can be held accountable the same way badge-holding public 'servants' can be, NOT Because I"m a raicst, no no, perish the thought."
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thoreau
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by thoreau » 08 Jun 2019, 01:34

Quillette revisits a knitting controversy.

https://quillette.com/2019/06/07/instag ... revisited/

I recall that at least one Grylliader knows something about this issue, so I am curious to hear if Quillette is covering this matter reasonably and accurately.

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"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Jennifer
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Re: Intellectualism: Dark and Webbed

Post by Jennifer » 08 Jun 2019, 02:01

Regarding the previous controversy on whether the Canadian government's behavior and attitudes toward the indigenous population count as a "genocide," here is a CBC article I found on Facebook just now: "Indigenous women kept from seeing their newborn babies until agreeing to sterilization, says lawyer. Sterilizations happened as recently as 2017, Saskatchewan lawsuit alleges"

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the ... Vc7Z4Zr_vk
As a senator calls for a nationwide review of the forced sterilization of Indigenous women, a lawyer representing a proposed class action detailed the women's accounts of being sterilized without proper and informed consent.

"In the throes of labour ... they would be approached, harassed, coerced into signing these consent forms," said Alisa Lombard, an associate with Maurice Law, the first Indigenous-owned national law firm in Canada.

The women would be told that they could not leave until their tubes were tied, cut or cauterized, she added, or that "they could not see their baby until they agreed."
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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