Antivaxxers

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Warren
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Warren » 06 May 2019, 09:21

Mo wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:29
I am team lunch with one addition. The voluntarily unvaccinated have financial liability of treatment for those that are infected despite being a) vaccinated or b) unvaccinated for medical reasons if they were part of the outbreak.
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JasonL
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Antivaxxers

Post by JasonL » 06 May 2019, 09:55

I think a liability strategy where you face ruinous risks for your voluntary unvaccinated kid but you are not forced by law to vaccinate is as close to justice as we get here.

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Ellie
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Ellie » 06 May 2019, 10:40

I vote we all go back to hunter-gatherer living and reduce the transmission rates of diseases.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by nicole » 06 May 2019, 10:50

Team Ellie
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 15:38

nicole wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:32
Jennifer wrote:
05 May 2019, 17:36
I also have concerns about a certain nasty strain of antivax parent I've seen, that seems to believe (though never explicitly comes out and says) certain diseases are God's punishment for bad behavior. Like, remember when the HPV vaccine first came out, how many parents said things like "MY daughter does not need a vaccine against sexually transmitted disease; MY daughter is raised to have VALUES!" (And the extra-shitty thing about that is, IIRC, the HPV vaccine is ONLY effective if given BEFORE the kid reaches puberty -- in other words, BEFORE the kid is old enough to realize 'Hmm, y'know, there's a chance I might one day change my mind, from 'kissing is icky and gross and I will NEVER EVER want to do that' to 'Hmm, I think I WOULD like to try kissing. And some other things as well.'")
That’s not true at all. The HPV vaccine is still effective in adults. Insurance still covers it in people’s 20s. I know because it was offered to me.
THAT is a relief, at least.

Still, I have a prediction to make: if we are alive when someone develops an effective vaccine for HIV/AIDS, there will be people opposed to it on moral grounds: "My child needs no such vaccine; MY child will know better than to have promiscuous sex or use needle drugs!"
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 06 May 2019, 15:56

Ellie wrote:
06 May 2019, 10:40
I vote we all go back to hunter-gatherer living and reduce the transmission rates of diseases.
nicole wrote:
06 May 2019, 10:50
Team Ellie
I'm on Team NOT nasty, brutish, and short.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by lunchstealer » 06 May 2019, 16:20

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 15:38
nicole wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:32
Jennifer wrote:
05 May 2019, 17:36
I also have concerns about a certain nasty strain of antivax parent I've seen, that seems to believe (though never explicitly comes out and says) certain diseases are God's punishment for bad behavior. Like, remember when the HPV vaccine first came out, how many parents said things like "MY daughter does not need a vaccine against sexually transmitted disease; MY daughter is raised to have VALUES!" (And the extra-shitty thing about that is, IIRC, the HPV vaccine is ONLY effective if given BEFORE the kid reaches puberty -- in other words, BEFORE the kid is old enough to realize 'Hmm, y'know, there's a chance I might one day change my mind, from 'kissing is icky and gross and I will NEVER EVER want to do that' to 'Hmm, I think I WOULD like to try kissing. And some other things as well.'")
That’s not true at all. The HPV vaccine is still effective in adults. Insurance still covers it in people’s 20s. I know because it was offered to me.
THAT is a relief, at least.

Still, I have a prediction to make: if we are alive when someone develops an effective vaccine for HIV/AIDS, there will be people opposed to it on moral grounds: "My child needs no such vaccine; MY child will know better than to have promiscuous sex or use needle drugs!"
The reason it's promoted for before-the-possibility-of-sexual-activity is because HPV is so widespread and first-time sex-ers are so bad at condoming that you want your kid to be protected out of the gate.

We got the then-surly-teen vaccinated even though at the time it was only recommended fro girls because wait what no I get it that sure girls are the ones with the cancer risk but that's no reason to let boys just be disease vectors.
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 16:29

lunchstealer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:20

The reason it's promoted for before-the-possibility-of-sexual-activity is because HPV is so widespread and first-time sex-ers are so bad at condoming that you want your kid to be protected out of the gate.

We got the then-surly-teen vaccinated even though at the time it was only recommended fro girls because wait what no I get it that sure girls are the ones with the cancer risk but that's no reason to let boys just be disease vectors.
I would indeed want MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.

EDIT: typos and HTML fuckery
Last edited by Jennifer on 06 May 2019, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by lunchstealer » 06 May 2019, 16:31

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
lunchstealer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:20

The reason it's promoted for before-the-possibility-of-sexual-activity is because HPV is so widespread and first-time sex-ers are so bad at condoming that you want your kid to be protected out of the gate.

We got the then-surly-teen vaccinated even though at the time it was only recommended fro girls because wait what no I get it that sure girls are the ones with the cancer risk but that's no reason to let boys just be disease vectors.
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Oh yeah, it's why I was fucking astonished when Rick "The Hair" Perry made it mandatory for Texas school kids.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 06 May 2019, 16:37

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 16:45

Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
IIRC there's been more than one. And that's in addition to statistics showing much higher divorce rates in "religious/red" states too.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 17:09

lunchstealer wrote:
04 May 2019, 21:17
I actually strongly support vaccination, but oppose outright mandated/forced vaccination from a purely limits-on-coercion standpoint. If I am to accept that even if you think developing fetuses are people who deserve protection from murder that a woman still has to have such autonomy over her body that she cannot be forced to carry that person to term against her will, and therefore that abortion must be legal and protected from unnecessary state interference, then I can’t easily see my way to making vaccination broadly mandatory.
I overlooked this yesterday, but -- IMO, the abortion analogy does not apply here. Instead, it's more like "I am pro-choice on abortion, yet do support certain types of mandatory vaccination (or quarantine for those who refuse) -- and I do not consider this contradictory, anymore than I think it a contradiction to say "I support the second amendment, and an individual right to own guns -- but NOT an individual right to own nukes." I know at least one 2A opponent who tried claiming this is hypocrisy on my part, but I said no: if you -- you meaning a single individual person, not a big collective entity like 'a nation-state' -- if you own a gun, it is of course possible for you to use it in evil ways that hurt innocents ... but also possible (and even likely) you can use it to defend yourself in such a way that you ONLY hurt "that one person trying to attack you," while everyone else in your vicinity is perfectly fine. This is, obviously, NOT the case with nuclear weapons: you can't defend yourself from a mugger or burglar without also destroying your whole entire city."

So, where bodily autonomy is concerned, the right to abortion is like the right to personally own a gun, whereas the right to not-vaccinate is more like the right to personally own a nuke: the former might, maybe, threaten the safety of a single individual, whereas the latter does NOT merely threaten one individual, but an entire community.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Pham Nuwen » 06 May 2019, 18:20

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:45
Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
IIRC there's been more than one. And that's in addition to statistics showing much higher divorce rates in "religious/red" states too.
That's all fake news, Jen. It's been proven from the article I didn't link to and the statistics I made up. God's people only vote Republican. Regardless of the fact that republicans from different states and regions believe different things and have different goals.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 18:31

Pham Nuwen wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:20
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:45
Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
IIRC there's been more than one. And that's in addition to statistics showing much higher divorce rates in "religious/red" states too.
That's all fake news, Jen. It's been proven from the article I didn't link to and the statistics I made up. God's people only vote Republican. Regardless of the fact that republicans from different states and regions believe different things and have different goals.
Pfft. If you want to vaccinate your kids against HIV then go nuts, but I'd sooner raise MY kids to NOT be hommasexual prostitute heroin addicts.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 06 May 2019, 18:34

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:31
Pham Nuwen wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:20
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:45
Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
IIRC there's been more than one. And that's in addition to statistics showing much higher divorce rates in "religious/red" states too.
That's all fake news, Jen. It's been proven from the article I didn't link to and the statistics I made up. God's people only vote Republican. Regardless of the fact that republicans from different states and regions believe different things and have different goals.
Pfft. If you want to vaccinate your kids against HIV then go nuts, but I'd sooner raise MY kids to NOT be hommasexual prostitute heroin addicts.
And since yer kids won't have no teeth, they don't have to worry about dentists, either.
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 18:50

Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:34
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:31
Pham Nuwen wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:20
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:45
Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:37
Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 16:29
I would indeed what MY hypothetical kid protected right out of the gate -- but an awful lot of parents don't. Those "My daughter doesn't need the vaccine because I'm raising her to NOT BE A SLUT" comments weren't something I invented.
Wasn't there a study a few years back showing that children from religious families who did not receive sex education were more likely to become pregnant or get STDs?
IIRC there's been more than one. And that's in addition to statistics showing much higher divorce rates in "religious/red" states too.
That's all fake news, Jen. It's been proven from the article I didn't link to and the statistics I made up. God's people only vote Republican. Regardless of the fact that republicans from different states and regions believe different things and have different goals.
Pfft. If you want to vaccinate your kids against HIV then go nuts, but I'd sooner raise MY kids to NOT be hommasexual prostitute heroin addicts.
And since yer kids won't have no teeth, they don't have to worry about dentists, either.
If you want to take YOUR kids to a dentist then go nuts, but I'd sooner raise MY kids to brush their teeth and otherwise practice good oral hygiene.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 06 May 2019, 18:53

Also: unless and until the government can absolutely one-hundred-percent guarantee NOBODY will EVER die as a result of a dental procedure, it is an unconscionable attack on parental rights to FORCE me to take my kid to a dentist. Forcing me to have my child's rotting teeth cleaned, drilled and given fillings is an assault on liberty --- the government has no right to mandate what I put in my child's body or teeth! Especially since tooth fillings are full of "toxins."
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Pham Nuwen » 06 May 2019, 20:57

Jennifer wrote:
06 May 2019, 18:53
Also: unless and until the government can absolutely one-hundred-percent guarantee NOBODY will EVER die as a result of a dental procedure, it is an unconscionable attack on parental rights to FORCE me to take my kid to a dentist. Forcing me to have my child's rotting teeth cleaned, drilled and given fillings is an assault on liberty --- the government has no right to mandate what I put in my child's body or teeth! Especially since tooth fillings are full of "toxins."
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Eric the .5b » 06 May 2019, 22:44

Mo wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:29
I am team lunch with one addition. The voluntarily unvaccinated have financial liability of treatment for those that are infected despite being a) vaccinated or b) unvaccinated for medical reasons if they were part of the outbreak.
So, they'll be one more medical bills sob story if they get sick.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 06 May 2019, 23:52

Eric the .5b wrote:
06 May 2019, 22:44
Mo wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:29
I am team lunch with one addition. The voluntarily unvaccinated have financial liability of treatment for those that are infected despite being a) vaccinated or b) unvaccinated for medical reasons if they were part of the outbreak.
So, they'll be one more medical bills sob story if they get sick.
This reminds me of an argument I had with a lefty friend some years back about motorcycle helmets. He was all for mandatory helmets. When I suggested instead of mandatory helmets, we just make motorcyclists who don't wear helmets responsible for their own medical bills if they aren't wearing a helmet. My friend was horrified at the thought that someone would have to bear the costs of their own stupidity.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Eric the .5b » 07 May 2019, 02:13

Aresen wrote:
06 May 2019, 23:52
Eric the .5b wrote:
06 May 2019, 22:44
Mo wrote:
06 May 2019, 07:29
I am team lunch with one addition. The voluntarily unvaccinated have financial liability of treatment for those that are infected despite being a) vaccinated or b) unvaccinated for medical reasons if they were part of the outbreak.
So, they'll be one more medical bills sob story if they get sick.
This reminds me of an argument I had with a lefty friend some years back about motorcycle helmets. He was all for mandatory helmets. When I suggested instead of mandatory helmets, we just make motorcyclists who don't wear helmets responsible for their own medical bills if they aren't wearing a helmet. My friend was horrified at the thought that someone would have to bear the costs of their own stupidity.
Exactly, with a side of "Oh, we are being punished for our dissidence!", people hiding that they're unvaccinated, faking medical reasons for lack of vaccination, etc. I don't think our regular tools for trying to avoid coercion will accomplish anything, here. If vaccination has to be mandatory, it has to be mandatory.

Admittedly, I suspect it all might be beside the point, and that the real thing that will kill off the anti-vax movement is a lot of dead anti-vaxxers and unable-to-vaxxers after an outbreak, probably mostly children. We'll certainly get a lot of mandates and other government responses afterward, but the real force there will be public fear.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 May 2019, 19:53

Teenager who sued his high school for banning him for being unvaccinated now has the pox.
Jerome Kunkel, 18, made headlines last month after he unsuccessfully sued his Kentucky school for barring unimmunised students amid an outbreak.

His lawyer, Christopher Weist, told US media that the teen's symptoms developed last week.

The student had opposed the vaccine on religious grounds.

His lawsuit argued the vaccine is "immoral, illegal and sinful" and that his rights had been violated.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 09 May 2019, 20:15

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 May 2019, 19:53
Teenager who sued his high school for banning him for being unvaccinated now has the pox.
Jerome Kunkel, 18, made headlines last month after he unsuccessfully sued his Kentucky school for barring unimmunised students amid an outbreak.

His lawyer, Christopher Weist, told US media that the teen's symptoms developed last week.

The student had opposed the vaccine on religious grounds.

His lawsuit argued the vaccine is "immoral, illegal and sinful" and that his rights had been violated.
Chickenpox is a highly contagious virus that causes blisters, itching and fever, though it is generally not fatal.
Damn
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 May 2019, 22:18

Aresen wrote:
09 May 2019, 20:15
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 May 2019, 19:53
Teenager who sued his high school for banning him for being unvaccinated now has the pox.
Jerome Kunkel, 18, made headlines last month after he unsuccessfully sued his Kentucky school for barring unimmunised students amid an outbreak.

His lawyer, Christopher Weist, told US media that the teen's symptoms developed last week.

The student had opposed the vaccine on religious grounds.

His lawsuit argued the vaccine is "immoral, illegal and sinful" and that his rights had been violated.
Chickenpox is a highly contagious virus that causes blisters, itching and fever, though it is generally not fatal.
Damn
Chickenpox gets more severe the older you are when you contract it, so you never know.
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 09 May 2019, 22:29

I had chickenpox just on the cusp of puberty -- 12.5 years old -- and I had it BAD. The pockmarks were not just on my skin, but internal -- I remember my mother buying me tons of frozen popsicle-type foods*, to assuage the itching in my throat, and I'm pretty sure there's scar tissue in my throat now too. If this dumb son of a bitch gets it even worse than I did, I will have no sympathy for him at all.

*Jello-O pudding pops, RIP
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