Antivaxxers

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Jennifer
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Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 04 Feb 2019, 15:55

We've had many discussions about antivaxxers in various places, but I don't think we have a dedicated thread about those idiots.

Here's a lengthy but interesting article in today's Slate taking a deeper look at antivaxxer motivations (and also mentioning, in its opening paragraph, that a measles outbreak just appeared in freakin' Atlanta). I added the emphasis in this excerpt:

https://slate.com/technology/2019/02/an ... heory.html

....Just as predictably, along with each of these outbreaks has come the frustration from multiple sources that these illnesses, and the massive costs they impose on communities trying to rein things in, could have been avoided if only people vaccinated their children against this disease. Article after article decries the problem, explaining the safety of measles vaccination and terms like herd immunity. Rational appeals are peppered with scolding charges of “irrationality,” “science denial,” and “madness.” Appeals to reason and evidence seem logical, but the appeals themselves are also unreasonable in their own way: They deny what these continuing episodes should make clear to us—that reason and evidence alone are not what this is all about.

What might help break this cycle, or at least reduce its frequency? A remarkable study—which received far too little attention when it was published in Nature in late 2017—offers some hopeful insight. It gets to the heart of the problem, the underlying emotions and psychology that explain why bright and fully informed people can see the same set of facts—in this case about childhood vaccination—in such radically different ways. As with so many issues, our perceptions are not the product of the facts alone, but more a matter of how we feel about those facts.

In the study, Avnika Amin and Saad Omer of Emory University (and their colleagues) identify some of the fundamental motivations behind 1) vaccine hesitancy, defined as parents being concerned about vaccinating their kids according to recommended schedules (something 75 percent of pediatricians say they’ve experienced); and 2) outright vaccine refusal, which is fortunately less common and tends to be limited to communities where people share common beliefs. (Overall childhood vaccination rates in the U.S. remain high.)

To identify the roots of these beliefs and hesitancies, Amin and Omer went deeper than most other research on fear of childhood vaccines. Their research is based on moral foundations theory, which centers on the various basic moral codes by which we judge right and wrong and that shape our fundamental sense of how we should behave and how society should operate. These are the basic lenses through which we see the world, the behaviors of others, and the issues of the day, and they vary from person to person. Some of us put more emphasis on caring for others and not doing harm (e.g., concern for the poor and refugees, anger at the mistreatment of immigrants). Some of us put more emphasis on being fair and not cheating (e.g., anger at corrupt politicians). Some of us emphasize loyalty and are upset by betrayal (e.g., loyal Republicans reject climate change, liberals oppose nuclear power, violators are kicked out of the tribe). Some emphasize respect for authority (e.g., the self-declared patriotism of people angry at NFL players who kneel during the national anthem). Some emphasize purity and cleanliness and are upset by contamination (e.g., people upset by pollution). And some people prioritize personal liberty and bristle at the suppression of individual freedom (e.g., gun rights advocates, the Occupy Wall Street movement’s anger that the wealthy control everything). We all share many of these values, but some of us are more motivated by some of them than others. Which ones we prioritize depends on all kinds of aspects of our personalities, along with age and gender and other life circumstances, as well as the issue at hand.

Amin and Omer found that moral foundations theory helps explain vaccine hesitancy. In one study, they compared three groups of parents: those with little concern (73 percent of the 1,007 people surveyed), those with moderate concern (11 percent), and those with “high hesitancy” (16 percent). They found that parents with medium vaccine hesitancy were twice as motivated by the purity/degradation moral value as the low-concern parents. And they found that the high-hesitancy parents were twice as motivated by both the purity/degradation and the liberty/oppression values as the low-concern group. Even more importantly, none of the concerned parents, in either the moderate- or high-hesitancy groups, were motivated by the care/harm value. That’s the moral argument used to appeal to parents’ sense of civic responsibility—that their unvaccinated kid might make some other kid who can’t get vaccinated sick. Vaccine-hesitant parents are not motivated by this care-for-others value nearly as much, at least on this issue.

Let’s put this into more familiar language. Vaccine-hesitant parents frequently say they worry about putting something foreign into their children’s bodies, so young and pure. They talk about not wanting to put something unnatural into their pure children’s bodies. They worry that vaccines may contain “poisons” and “toxins” and “contaminants”, like thimerosal. That is the semantic expression of the purity/degradation moral value. The more deeply hesitant parents and outright vaccine refusers say these things too. But they also go further: They state that they don’t like the government or the medical community telling them what to do, which is a reflection of the liberty/oppression value, and that they don’t trust those institutions’ promises that vaccines are safe, which means that they aren’t motivated by the moral value of respect for authority (again, at least not on this issue). .....
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JasonL
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Re: Antivax

Post by JasonL » 04 Feb 2019, 16:09

That maps to my experience with the species - there is left purity ala naturopaths and right purity with religious overtones. That's the language they use for sure. I also think there is an amplification effect of finding communities of people who share these values so you can all talk about how It Just Aint Right / Natural Secrets THEY Don't Want You to Know About - the secret shame your feeling of wrongness in the face of rational explanations is evaporated when you can find a community of fellow travelers. It's a bit similar to the plague of conspiracy mindedness, and it has significant overlap I think in its operation - there's this thing you really feel to be the case in the face of all evidence, you used to be ashamed to say it out loud because you would be laughed at by nearly everyone you met, but now you have communities of thousands of people who support you and we all just say whatever we want now anyway. There's a link to this idea that you are independent minded, not sheep like for defending your evidence free view in the face of all evidence.

It is the disease of our day.

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by lunchstealer » 04 Feb 2019, 16:44

I suspect there's also a positive motivation in seeing themselves as 'getting informed' and 'being proactive' in something something they learned the magic secret that the sheep never learn. It makes them feel special.
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JD
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by JD » 04 Feb 2019, 16:47

Vaccine-hesitant parents frequently say they worry about putting something foreign into their children’s bodies, so young and pure. They talk about not wanting to put something unnatural into their pure children’s bodies. They worry that vaccines may contain “poisons” and “toxins” and “contaminants”, like thimerosal.
It's the modern version of being worried about goblins and bogies and the wee folk who will steal your children if you don't avoid their hiding places or placate them or whatever, if you ask me. I dare say not one in a hundred anti-vaxers could describe any real science on the issue to you, but they're all full of folk wisdom about how to avoid hobgoblins.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 04 Feb 2019, 17:15

Antivaxxers seem to tap into every single source of crazy: Racism, anti-government, anti-science, anti-authority, anti-business/capitalism, naturopathy, nature-worship, in-group, conspiracy theories, social justice.

Come to think of it, antivaxx may be the thing which can unify 'Murica.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by thoreau » 04 Feb 2019, 19:25

Aresen wrote:
04 Feb 2019, 17:15
Antivaxxers seem to tap into every single source of crazy: Racism, anti-government, anti-science, anti-authority, anti-business/capitalism, naturopathy, nature-worship, in-group, conspiracy theories, social justice.

Come to think of it, antivaxx may be the thing which can unify 'Murica.
We'll all get meningitis together! And then we'll be even crazier. Together.
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JasonL
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by JasonL » 04 Feb 2019, 23:24

I think that reinforces the moral sentiment of purity idea. If your gut rebels against violations of purity, the narrative around that can be anything.

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 04 Feb 2019, 23:51

JasonL wrote:
04 Feb 2019, 23:24
I think that reinforces the moral sentiment of purity idea. If your gut rebels against violations of purity, the narrative around that can be anything.
My sediments are pure. Nothing but the finest SiO2!
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Tuco » 05 Feb 2019, 08:15

thoreau wrote:
04 Feb 2019, 19:25
Aresen wrote:
04 Feb 2019, 17:15
Antivaxxers seem to tap into every single source of crazy: Racism, anti-government, anti-science, anti-authority, anti-business/capitalism, naturopathy, nature-worship, in-group, conspiracy theories, social justice.

Come to think of it, antivaxx may be the thing which can unify 'Murica.
We'll all get meningitis together! And then we'll be even crazier. Together.
Brings a tear to my eye.

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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Feb 2019, 09:58

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington ... OZCGaIYnwA

They are protesting lawmakers changing or eliminating the philosophical reason for not vaccinating.
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Feb 2019, 11:43

Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 09:58
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington ... OZCGaIYnwA

They are protesting lawmakers changing or eliminating the philosophical reason for not vaccinating.
On the plus side, if you get them all together in one place like that they will be less of a problem in the future.
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Jennifer
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Jennifer » 09 Feb 2019, 12:55

"I brought my kid into this world, dammit, and I can take her out of it if I want! And anyone else's kids, too! How DARE you infringe upon my rights!"
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 09 Feb 2019, 15:30

It's the Daily Beast, I'm sorry, but I saw this in our local rag, but cannot find a better source online: Robert Kennedy Jr. fights against Vaccine Bill in Washinton State, where there has been an outbreak of measles.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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thoreau
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by thoreau » 09 Feb 2019, 16:18

I support withholding vaccines and all other forms of medical care from people with Kennedy DNA.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 Feb 2019, 16:28

To be fair, there was a time when being the Worst Kennedy meant invading Cuba. These days it's just a competition between two powerless idiots who want to throw people in prison for marijuana or kill kids with chicken pox.
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by dhex » 09 Feb 2019, 16:48

Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Warren » 09 Feb 2019, 17:02

dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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thoreau
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by thoreau » 09 Feb 2019, 17:21

dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
You always need a patsy.

Jack Ruby's nephew will be on the clean-up crew.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Pham Nuwen » 09 Feb 2019, 18:33

Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:02
dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
It was 50 years ago? When can I joke about JFK's death?
Goddamn libertarian message board. Hugh Akston

leave me to my mescaline smoothie in peace, please. dhex

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Aresen
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 09 Feb 2019, 19:00

Gizmodo wrote:Amid a measles outbreak in Washington state that officials have confirmed has spread to at least 51 people and suspect to have spread to over a dozen others, hundreds of people showed up to a rally on Friday to demand the right to keep exposing their kids to the possibility of contracting easily prevented, potentially fatal illnesses, multiple outlets reported.
:lol:

Hier
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Warren » 09 Feb 2019, 20:07

Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 18:33
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:02
dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
It was 50 years ago? When can I joke about JFK's death?
After the last person what was alive at the time is dead.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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Aresen
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 09 Feb 2019, 20:18

Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:07
Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 18:33
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:02
dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
It was 50 years ago? When can I joke about JFK's death?
After the last person what was alive at the time is dead.
Phft! We were telling joke about it before I finished high school (1968):
Aside from that Jackie, how did you enjoy Dallas?
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Warren » 09 Feb 2019, 20:54

Aresen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:18
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:07
Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 18:33
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:02
dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
It was 50 years ago? When can I joke about JFK's death?
After the last person what was alive at the time is dead.
Phft! We were telling joke about it before I finished high school (1968):
Aside from that Jackie, how did you enjoy Dallas?
Yeah. You were all a bunch of microagressing hate mongers creating an unsafe space with your toxic privileged gaze.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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Shem
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Shem » 09 Feb 2019, 22:06

Aresen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:18
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:07
Pham Nuwen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 18:33
Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 17:02
dhex wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 16:48
Is Lee Harvey Oswalds nephew available?
Ooooh. Too soon.
It was 50 years ago? When can I joke about JFK's death?
After the last person what was alive at the time is dead.
Phft! We were telling joke about it before I finished high school (1968):
Aside from that Jackie, how did you enjoy Dallas?
You mean you were ripping off jokes about Mary Todd Lincoln.
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Aresen
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Re: Antivaxxers

Post by Aresen » 09 Feb 2019, 22:34

Warren wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:54
Aresen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:18
Phft! We were telling joke about it before I finished high school (1968):
Aside from that Jackie, how did you enjoy Dallas?
Yeah. You were all a bunch of microagressing hate mongers creating an unsafe space with your toxic privileged gaze.
AYPI?
Shem wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 22:06
Aresen wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:18

Phft! We were telling joke about it before I finished high school (1968):
Aside from that Jackie, how did you enjoy Dallas?
You mean you were ripping off jokes about Mary Todd Lincoln.
17 year olds aren't noted for originality.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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