Vote or Die

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lunchstealer
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by lunchstealer » 29 Oct 2018, 12:00

Warren wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 10:28
lunchstealer wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 03:21
Again, the GOP is all about voter suppression and the Democrats are all about message suppression.
I submit that however delusional The Story the GOP tells itself, voter suppression does in fact favor the GOP. Whereas message suppression is elephants all the way down.
My response was to 'if Democrats were rigging elections there'd be no Fox News' thing. Reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine, instill some 'hate speech' laws for a while, overturn Citizens United and ban ads from anyone but the campaign, yeah, you can make message suppression work for Team Blue.
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Jadagul
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Jadagul » 29 Oct 2018, 15:45

It is certainly the case that the playing field is currently rigged in the Republicans' favor, insofar as the House is supposed to be the most representative body, and the Republicans have a six-point advantage there.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Eric the .5b » 29 Oct 2018, 17:13

Mo wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 04:32
If you had cheap self-driving taxis swarming the countryside, wouldn't it be easier for disabled people to get ID as well?
Potentially.
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thoreau
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by thoreau » 29 Oct 2018, 17:27

I've gotta say this against the Democrats' stances: Yes, I agree that voting should not be made unduly difficult. Yes, I agree that what's happening in Georgia is terrible and needs to be stopped.

Still, I wish that the Democrats weren't quite so eager to embrace the voters who don't have their shit together.
"The guy who misspelled his own name? Definitely one of ours. Gotta stand up for him!"
"Everyone who's lost their ID? Totally ours. Definitely."
"Yeah, the people who mailed their forms in late? Totally our supporters. We're counting on them!"
"And don't forget the people who punched the wrong hole on the ballot! Definitely our core supporters!"

Don't get me wrong, I understand that anyone can make a mistake, and that plenty of people don't have it easy and have excuses. And I understand that making allowances for them also means that some total slackers will vote. Fine.

I just think the opposition party might fare a little better if their motto wasn't "We are proud to count on the support of anyone who manages to fuck this up."

It's especially strange in that the Obama Administration (and to a lesser extent the Clinton Administration) was a well-oiled* machine compared to the Bush 2.0 and Trump Administrations. Yet Democrats who seem to have their shit together on the job (at least in relative terms) count on support from people who, like, man, couldn't find, you know, their ID? While Republicans who place an emphasis on personal responsibility vote for the most incompetent fuck-ups around. Maybe the parties need to do some more swapping of constituents.

*Insert Clinton lubricant joke here.
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Aresen
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Aresen » 29 Oct 2018, 18:13

Jadagul wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 15:45
It is certainly the case that the playing field is currently rigged in the Republicans' favor, insofar as the House is supposed to be the most representative body, and the Republicans have a six-point advantage there.
The GOP has done more gerrymandering, but the fact that even the smallest state gets one representative in the House plus the fact that smaller states lean GOP does weight things in the GOP's favor.

We'll see how things have changed on November 7. Pennsylvania is going to be particularly interesting.
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Mo » 29 Oct 2018, 18:25

The problem with gerrymandering today is that modern computational power makes it so that you can do wild things. My favorite is the N.Y. baconmander that gives every district to the Dems.
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Aresen
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Aresen » 29 Oct 2018, 18:43

Mo wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 18:25
The problem with gerrymandering today is that modern computational power makes it so that you can do wild things. My favorite is the N.Y. baconmander that gives every district to the Dems.
SCOTUS just refused to review the Pennsylvania case.
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Andrew
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Andrew » 29 Oct 2018, 19:11

The PA case is interesting because the decision relied on a state constitutional provision, not the federal constitution. A number of states have identical provisions to the PA one, so get ready for all the partisan gerrymandering suits to move to state courts.
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Jennifer
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Jennifer » 29 Oct 2018, 19:39

lunchstealer wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 12:00
Warren wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 10:28
lunchstealer wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 03:21
Again, the GOP is all about voter suppression and the Democrats are all about message suppression.
I submit that however delusional The Story the GOP tells itself, voter suppression does in fact favor the GOP. Whereas message suppression is elephants all the way down.
My response was to 'if Democrats were rigging elections there'd be no Fox News' thing. Reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine, instill some 'hate speech' laws for a while, overturn Citizens United and ban ads from anyone but the campaign, yeah, you can make message suppression work for Team Blue.
I'm at the point where I wouldn't mind seeing a "No outright lying" doctrine (as when Fox News shows "Proud Boys" attacking anti-racist protesters, yet falsely claims that those attackers are actually "Antifa." And repeated this lie multiple times, making it obvious that it was NOT merely a case of "We initially got our reports wrong").
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Jadagul
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Jadagul » 29 Oct 2018, 20:08

Aresen wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 18:13
Jadagul wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 15:45
It is certainly the case that the playing field is currently rigged in the Republicans' favor, insofar as the House is supposed to be the most representative body, and the Republicans have a six-point advantage there.
The GOP has done more gerrymandering, but the fact that even the smallest state gets one representative in the House plus the fact that smaller states lean GOP does weight things in the GOP's favor.

We'll see how things have changed on November 7. Pennsylvania is going to be particularly interesting.
I was being deliberately agnostic about who had done the rigging. Or whether it had been actively "done" at all.

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Ellie
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Ellie » 29 Oct 2018, 20:16

I'm getting SO SICK of Vote or Die; a friend made a post about praying for the synagogue shooting victims and somebody immediately responded, "They don't need prayers, they need votes!" I know what they meant but the snarky part of me wanted to ask which politician I could put in office to make sure nobody ever killed anyone ever again.

Anyway, I'm getting more and more tempted to make a giant graphic and post it on my Facebook:

Don't let evil triumph on November 6! You must vote!
Vote for the party that believes the rights of ALL people matter ALL the time -- no exceptions!
Vote for the party that welcomes immigrants, respecting and admiring their courage!
Vote for the party that wants to reform our racist criminal justice system!
Vote for the party that believes gender self-determination is none of the government's business!
Vote for the party that supports gay marriage!
Vote for the party that doesn't think the government gets to decide if women have abortions!
Vote for the good guys!
Vote Libertarian!


Edited to add: this is also extra-tempting because I just watched a comment thread in which a 30-year friendship dissolved because the leftist basically said, "These fundamental issues of racism and human rights are so important that it's unconscionable to ignore them in favor of tax cuts or anything else Trump supports." So if anybody was like, "But but but Libertarians are blah blah" I could say, "It's unconscionable for you to ignore these fundamental issues that Libertarians stand for!"
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Warren
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Warren » 29 Oct 2018, 20:21

Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:16
I'm getting SO SICK of Vote or Die; a friend made a post about praying for the synagogue shooting victims and somebody immediately responded, "They don't need prayers, they need votes!" I know what they meant but the snarky part of me wanted to ask which politician I could put in office to make sure nobody ever killed anyone ever again.

Anyway, I'm getting more and more tempted to make a giant graphic and post it on my Facebook:

Don't let evil triumph on November 6! You must vote!
Vote for the party that believes the rights of ALL people matter ALL the time -- no exceptions!
Vote for the party that welcomes immigrants, respecting and admiring their courage!
Vote for the party that wants to reform our racist criminal justice system!
Vote for the party that believes gender self-determination is none of the government's business!
Vote for the party that supports gay marriage!
Vote for the party that doesn't think the government gets to decide if women have abortions!
Vote for the good guys!
Vote Libertarian!


Edited to add: this is also extra-tempting because I just watched a comment thread in which a 30-year friendship dissolved because the leftist basically said, "These fundamental issues of racism and human rights are so important that it's unconscionable to ignore them in favor of tax cuts or anything else Trump supports." So if anybody was like, "But but but Libertarians are blah blah" I could say, "It's unconscionable for you to ignore these fundamental issues that Libertarians stand for!"
Actually Libertarians being libertarians, there's no firm support for any of that... or anything else... outside taxation=theft.
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Jennifer
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Jennifer » 29 Oct 2018, 20:26

Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:16
I'm getting SO SICK of Vote or Die; a friend made a post about praying for the synagogue shooting victims and somebody immediately responded, "They don't need prayers, they need votes!" I know what they meant but the snarky part of me wanted to ask which politician I could put in office to make sure nobody ever killed anyone ever again.
I'd be happy just to go back to the old status quo of "a POTUS who does NOT promote the bullshit conspiracy theories which killers find inspirational." (Apparently the synagogue murdered believed the whole "fear the dreadful migrant caravan" garbage Trump keeps promoting.) And yeah, there will always be crazy people believing stupid bullshit, but having the president of the United States tell them their bullshit is actually real sure as hell isn't helping.
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Taktix®
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Taktix® » 29 Oct 2018, 20:28

Painboy wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 22:07
Highway wrote:
27 Oct 2018, 21:59
All of the "everyone needs to vote!" stuff comes from the left because that's not the right's tactic. Their tactics are voter suppression: closing early voting locations, disqualifying voters through shitty schemes like use-it-or-lose-it and exact match, getting rid of automatic registration, getting ID laws passed (and then making it harder for "the wrong people" to get IDs), throwing shade on transportation efforts, and making up vote fraud rumors to justify all that stuff.
Yep. Which is exactly what the left would do if things were reversed.
But right now they're not reversed. They're happening right now and if these efforts are successful, it will basically cement an autocrat into office for the next 6+ years.

When they reverse, and the left is doing shitty socialist shit, we'll fucking fight them (rhetorically) too. But that's for then, the sum greatest threat to liberty right now is coming from the right.

You guys, only like the 3rd time in a century the White House party would gain seats in the first midterm, since 2002, only this time no 9/11 bump!?! If at least some check isn't made in the form of taking the HOR, the Democrats are fucking broken forever. The GOP will have the census in 2020 and if you don't think Putin's lap orangutan isn't ready to install a permanent GOP majority, you aren't paying attention, Nancy.

So sorry, I may not be Vote-or-Die, but it's Vote-or-Trumpocracy-Forever...
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Ellie
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Ellie » 29 Oct 2018, 20:33

Warren wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:21
Actually Libertarians being libertarians, there's no firm support for any of that... or anything else... outside taxation=theft.
Shhhh, let me enjoy my fantasies of screwing with people in peace ;)

I do think most of my leftist friends would be blown away to discover that all those points are lifted near-verbatim from the LP.org website (even if individual libertarians rarely espouse them). They probably think that the Libertarian Party's platform just says "lol fuck poor people" or something.
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Warren » 29 Oct 2018, 20:39

Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:33
all those points are lifted near-verbatim from the LP.org website
Even abortion? huh.
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Aresen » 29 Oct 2018, 20:43

Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:33
They probably think that the Libertarian Party's platform just says "lol fuck poor people" or something.
This is why I am a libertarian. :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Ellie
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Ellie » 29 Oct 2018, 20:56

Warren wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:39
Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:33
all those points are lifted near-verbatim from the LP.org website
Even abortion? huh.
"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Eric the .5b » 29 Oct 2018, 21:12

thoreau wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 17:27
Still, I wish that the Democrats weren't quite so eager to embrace the voters who don't have their shit together.
There's a simple explanation for this: those people, more often than not, vote Blue.

(Or, perhaps, more precisely, those people, whose cases get championed, more often than not vote Blue.)

If this were untrue, you wouldn't see Team Blue championing these people. You'd see Team Blue mocking them and trying to keep their votes out of the counts.
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Warren
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Warren » 29 Oct 2018, 21:23

Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:56
Warren wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:39
Ellie wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 20:33
all those points are lifted near-verbatim from the LP.org website
Even abortion? huh.
"Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration."
I am old enough to remember when pro-life held a slim majority in the LP. I knew we've been moving pro-choice all along, but didn't think we got that far.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Eric the .5b » 29 Oct 2018, 21:41

...And to be sure, I'm annoyed that I managed to miss the voter-registration deadline this year, and that I couldn't just register online. It shouldn't be scads easier to get a Hugo ballot than a real one, especially when I have to present a state photo ID at the polls in any case.
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thoreau
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by thoreau » 29 Oct 2018, 21:47

Eric the .5b wrote:
thoreau wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 17:27
Still, I wish that the Democrats weren't quite so eager to embrace the voters who don't have their shit together.
There's a simple explanation for this: those people, more often than not, vote Blue.

(Or, perhaps, more precisely, those people, whose cases get championed, more often than not vote Blue.)

If this were untrue, you wouldn't see Team Blue championing these people. You'd see Team Blue mocking them and trying to keep their votes out of the counts.
Yeah, I know. It's still embarrassing.

Not as embarrassing as some of the people that Team Red embraces, but still. Embarrassing.

The country would be better off if Team Blue said to them "Look, we want voting laws to be open rather than exclusionary, but, seriously, spell your name right. Make sure you have your ID. Mail the damn form in on time."

My frustration with this is less about Team Blue sympathy (though I obviously consider them the lesser evil) and more frustration with a job where I deal with the less organized segment of our society. We need fewer people saying "Now, now, we can't judge people for never having their shit together" and more people saying "Seriously, get your shit together!"

It is strange to me that Blue administrations tend to have their shit together more than Red administrations, yet Red voters disproportionately say "Get your shit together, man!" while Blue voters disproportionately say either "I, like, don't have my shit together, but can I vote?" or else say "Now, now, we can't judge people who don't have their shit together."
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Ellie
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Ellie » 29 Oct 2018, 22:00

Seen on Facebook:
And I’m sure everyone who voted Trump, third party, or didn’t vote is doing mental gymnastics right now to convince themselves that today’s murder at a synagogue is not their fault. I want to be clear: IT IS YOUR FAULT.
OH MY GOD FUCK OFF. I can assure you -- never mind the fact that my state went for Hillary ANYWAY -- that my vote for Gary Johnson did nothing to embolden the racist pricks of this land. Frankly I'm not sure it did anything at all, but certainly not harm. PLEASE STAHP.
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Jennifer
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by Jennifer » 29 Oct 2018, 22:08

thoreau wrote:
29 Oct 2018, 21:47
The country would be better off if Team Blue said to them "Look, we want voting laws to be open rather than exclusionary, but, seriously, spell your name right. Make sure you have your ID. Mail the damn form in on time."
That's ... not quite an accurate description of the problem, though. With Georgia's "exact match" law, for example, the problem is NOT "Wannabe voters are too stupid to spell their own names," but also such cases as, say, "Jennifer Jones-Smith" (with the hyphen) is not allowed to vote because a county registrar put her down as "Jennifer Jones Smith" without a hyphen. Or "James d'Amore" was registered as "James Damore" (or vice-versa). Other voters were disqualified due to mistakes made by the Social Security administration, and of course, the voter registrar simply tossed the registration rather than let said voter know about the problem in advance so it could be fixed. Regarding people who don't have their ID -- the Georgia DMV has been refusing (or, rather, insisting on double and triple and quadruple-checking) proof-of-identity documents which have always been accepted -- until now. And many people did not register in time because they were not informed that they'd been (illegally) kicked off the registered-voter rolls until after the deadline had passed. Meanwhile, over 340,000 Georgia voters were purged from the rolls over not reporting a change of address -- because they didn't have to, because they NEVER MOVED.
Last year, Brian Kemp, Georgia's secretary of state canceled the registrations of over half a million Georgians because they left the state or moved to another county. Except they didn't. The nation's top experts in address location reviewed Kemp's list of purged voters -- and returned the names and addresses of 340,134 who never moved at all.
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thoreau
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Re: Vote or Die

Post by thoreau » 29 Oct 2018, 22:08

Collective guilt: Not just for Muslims anymore.

EDIT: That was in response to Ellie.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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