States-ism

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thoreau
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States-ism

Post by thoreau »

Another thread got into the topic of whether Puerto Rico and other US territories should become states. Apparently Congress can do this without a Presidential signature. So, in theory, a Blue Congress could bring in several decidedly non-pale-skinned Senators by conferring statehood on Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, the residential areas of DC, Guam, American Samoa, etc.

We can debate whether certain island territories should be admitted together, but even if you lumped together all non-Hawaiian US possessions in the Pacific we're still talking 8 new states.

The Reds are used to playing hardball, so maybe it's time for Blues to do the same.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: States-ism

Post by Eric the .5b »

It would be a purely self-interested act by the Blues, but I can't see any call to object in the case of Puerto Rico.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Aresen »

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 19:17
It would be a purely self-interested act by the Blues, but I can't see any call to object in the case of Puerto Rico.
Watching Mitch McConnell's head explode would be a bonus.
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thoreau
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Re: States-ism

Post by thoreau »

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 19:17
It would be a purely self-interested act by the Blues, but I can't see any call to object in the case of Puerto Rico.
If Puerto Rico gets statehood, it would be kind of weird to deny it to the US Virgin Islands. They're right next door, and leaving them out would not seem fair.

With the Pacific islands, given that the territories are more spread out, less prosperous, and would have a harder time managing the responsibilities of a state without federal subsidy, maybe an argument can be made for leaving them out. But the US Virgin Islands have a lower poverty rate and higher GDP per capita than Puerto Rico, so they could frankly manage their affairs as a state better than Puerto Rico could.
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Jadagul
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Re: States-ism

Post by Jadagul »

But the US Virgin Islands have, like, a hundred thousand people on them. Even Wyoming breaks half a million.

It looks like if you put together all of our non-Puerto Rico overseas territories together, they would still have fewer people than our smallest state. And combining the Virgin Islands and Guam doesn't make a lot of sense.

Edit: in contrast, Puerto Rico has basically the median population for a US state.

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Re: States-ism

Post by thoreau »

I have been assured that small states are the best states, that giving them disproportionate clout is right and proper and essential to securing liberty in a constitutional republic.

So, fuck it. The US Virgin Islands are getting 2 Senators in the Thoreaucracy.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: States-ism

Post by Eric the .5b »

thoreau wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:06
I have been assured that small states are the best states, that giving them disproportionate clout is right and proper and essential to securing liberty in a constitutional republic.

So, fuck it. The US Virgin Islands are getting 2 Senators in the Thoreaucracy.
You mean the premise that elected Trump? *shrug*
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Re: States-ism

Post by Jadagul »

I'm sympathetic to the "Well, if Republicans are playing hardball, the Democrats should too" arguments. But I would like to only play hardball in good ways to get good results---not just for the sake of hardball.

So "Hold up the Kavanaugh nomination as much as possible until questions get answered?" Good. "If you win the house, actually investigate a bunch of the crap that Trump and his cabinet are doing?" Good, as long as you don't wind up undermining your own case. "Fuck you, we're going to destroy the system too!"? Bad.

I can see a good argument for "admitting Puerto Rico" falling on the good side of that line. We maybe should have admitted them decades ago. (Though I think they didn't want it at the time. And maybe still don't? I have no idea). So it's hardball, and also (probably) good policy.

Admitting the USVI just to fuck the Republicans is not on the good side.

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Re: States-ism

Post by Eric the .5b »

Jadagul wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:19
Admitting the USVI just to fuck the Republicans is not on the good side.
Agreed.

If they wanted to play real hardball, they could just start a civil war.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Warren »

There's no room for more states. In fact we've got too many now. We need to get rid of some. I propose redrawing the state lines as shown below. Alaska is still Alaska. Hawaii can be part of ISLAND state, we can throw Porto Rico, Guam, The Virgin Islands, whatever, in with it.
NEW US.png
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thoreau
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Re: States-ism

Post by thoreau »

Tit-for-tat aside, I do think it would be hard to justify denying representation and self governance to a bunch of people who are right next door to a new state, especially if they are in better fiscal shape. And they just happen to be mostly African-American.

And, to be clear, I also support statehood for the residential areas of DC.

But, yes, it's also in my mind that fair treatment for some people would just happen to dick over a party that has been betting on voter suppression.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Andrew »

I want fewer voters, not more. Like maybe no votes for employees of any level of government. Or require that voters had to be born in the lower 48 and all parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were US citizens (tough luck for you, McCain and George Romney!). I'm willing to hear other creative ideas to rein in the rabble.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Aresen »

thoreau wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:55
But, yes, it's also in my mind that fair treatment for some people would just happen to dick over a party that has been betting on voter suppression.
This. The GOP might just have to start thinking of non-white residents of the USA as Americans.

FWIW, the Conservative Party in Canada came to the epiphany about 20 years ago that they couldn't just be the party of English speaking white folk if they wanted to ever win an election again. They made a deliberate effort to reach out to market-friendly groups and socially conservative people (i.e. anti-drug, anti-crime) in minority communities. They had considerable success among East Indians, Koreans and Chinese.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Aresen »

Andrew wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:08
I want fewer voters, not more. Like maybe no votes for employees of any level of government. Or require that voters had to be born in the lower 48 and all parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were US citizens (tough luck for you, McCain and George Romney!). I'm willing to hear other creative ideas to rein in the rabble.
I'd tend to start with eliminating the franchise of people with liberal arts degrees or attended Ivy League schools. :lol:
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Re: States-ism

Post by Warren »

Aresen wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:22
Andrew wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:08
I want fewer voters, not more. Like maybe no votes for employees of any level of government. Or require that voters had to be born in the lower 48 and all parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were US citizens (tough luck for you, McCain and George Romney!). I'm willing to hear other creative ideas to rein in the rabble.
I'd tend to start with eliminating the franchise of people with liberal arts degrees or attended Ivy League schools. :lol:
I like where you're going with this.

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Re: States-ism

Post by Kolohe »

Warren wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:46
There's no room for more states. In fact we've got too many now. We need to get rid of some. I propose redrawing the state lines as shown below. Alaska is still Alaska. Hawaii can be part of ISLAND state, we can throw Porto Rico, Guam, The Virgin Islands, whatever, in with it.
NEW US.png
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Re: States-ism

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Andrew wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:08
I want fewer voters, not more. Like maybe no votes for employees of any level of government. Or require that voters had to be born in the lower 48 and all parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were US citizens (tough luck for you, McCain and George Romney!). I'm willing to hear other creative ideas to rein in the rabble.
Easy. Civics/Literacy tests. And on that, I'm not kidding at all.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Aresen »

Given the history of such tests, I'd call that a non-starter.

Even without the history, I'd have to say 'no'. The knowledge of an arbitrary subject - even something as putatively relevant as 'how the government works' - is no guarantee of common sense (e.g. Oberlin) or an ability to make good political choices. Further, it would very likely to be used by an established political class as a tool to maintain dominance.

For better or worse, 'warm, breathing and over the minimum age' is the least worst option.
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Re: States-ism

Post by Eric the .5b »

Besides, we should know better than to think it's a matter of the voters picking the wrong people.
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Re: States-ism

Post by lunchstealer »

Aresen wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 23:26
Given the history of such tests, I'd call that a non-starter.
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Re: States-ism

Post by JasonL »

Observation - pew says 77% of PR residents think abortion should be illegal

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Re: States-ism

Post by Mo »

JasonL wrote:
26 Sep 2018, 06:35
Observation - pew says 77% of PR residents think abortion should be illegal
How many think only 16 people died from the hurricane?
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Re: States-ism

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Andrew wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:08
I want fewer voters, not more. Like maybe no votes for employees of any level of government. Or require that voters had to be born in the lower 48 and all parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were US citizens (tough luck for you, McCain and George Romney!). I'm willing to hear other creative ideas to rein in the rabble.
Landowners, like God intended. :D
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Re: States-ism

Post by Mo »

I'll just leave this here.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: States-ism

Post by Kolohe »

50 current US states + PR + DC + 10 Canadian provinces + 31 Mexican States + DF + Cuba + Virgin Islands (all as one) + Venezuela = 97 states, also a prime number.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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