Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

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Jadagul
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Jadagul » 28 Jan 2019, 19:33

Kevin Drum has a roundup here: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... stitution/

It's not completely clear that wealth tax (or income tax!) is unconstitutional. But it's not clear that it isn't, either.

And he talks about the surtax option here: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... wont-kill/

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JasonL
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 28 Jan 2019, 19:43

My read is it can be made constitutional so the arguments can commence about stupidity. That’s my take. It’s a mostly stupid attack on savings.

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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 05:37

Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Warren » 29 Jan 2019, 09:48

Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 10:00

Warren wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:48
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
When you inherit property, it is immediately valued at the price on the day you inherited it, not the purchase price. So if you inherit $10M worth of shares of stock that were purchased for $1 each, if you sell it, there will never be any taxes paid on those capital gains.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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JasonL
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 29 Jan 2019, 10:22

I have no concerns with elimination of stepped up basis and think it's overall a positive change. I think cap gains as income is a bit overrated. Countries that take tax collection on rich people seriously tend not to impose high cap gains taxes. You are hit on corporate tax rates plus cap gains in those values so the US rate even after the reduction is still maybe 5th highest in the world effectively. I'd rather just tax people on some scale and argue about the scale. Eliminate deductions first, then argue about the scale.

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Warren » 29 Jan 2019, 10:28

JasonL wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:22
Eliminate deductions first, then argue about the scale.
Cosign. I'm much more concerned about the complexity of the tax code than tax rate. I'm also especially opposed to individual income tax in it's potential for Big Brotheresque abuse.
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 29 Jan 2019, 10:35

Yeah I hate income tax too but it ain't going anywhere. The politics of eliminating individual deductions is a problem too, but I really liked that plan that came out of Obamas bi partisan commission where you just impost a top end cap on total deduction. That way you aren't eliminating anything per se, but the total of all deducitons is limited in impact. That was a good idea. Immediately discarded of course.

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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 10:36

JasonL wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:22
I have no concerns with elimination of stepped up basis and think it's overall a positive change. I think cap gains as income is a bit overrated. Countries that take tax collection on rich people seriously tend not to impose high cap gains taxes. You are hit on corporate tax rates plus cap gains in those values so the US rate even after the reduction is still maybe 5th highest in the world effectively. I'd rather just tax people on some scale and argue about the scale. Eliminate deductions first, then argue about the scale.
Is that still true after the elimination of taxation on global profits and the reduced overall rate? Countries that take taxing people seriously tax you crazy high VAT.
JasonL wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:35
Yeah I hate income tax too but it ain't going anywhere. The politics of eliminating individual deductions is a problem too, but I really liked that plan that came out of Obamas bi partisan commission where you just impost a top end cap on total deduction. That way you aren't eliminating anything per se, but the total of all deducitons is limited in impact. That was a good idea. Immediately discarded of course.
Cosign
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 29 Jan 2019, 11:26

Last I saw, most countries give up, do little on corp rates nominally stated - ours are way higher as written. It's super hard to back into the effective rate because of global profits etc, but it's also surprising to many I think that taxation on investment is not a super big thing in the eurozone.

I'll say this in general, people who advocate for european or scandinavian in particular tax systems often have no idea what they are suggesting.

a) taxes on income are much flatter than in the US. If you see that Denmark has a top marginal rate of 60%, you may be thinking only rich people are paying that on their additional millions. Nope. The top marginal rate applies on income shockingly far down into the "normal people" income zone. Their bands are flatter. More people, poor and middle class included pay more taxes. You need a broad base to raise a lot of revenue on a recurring basis, not just a shiny top rate applying to a handful of people. Some do this with very high payroll taxes instead of income taxes but basically the same idea.

b) they have substantial VATs we don't have paid by all consumers on most goods - the effect of taxation on the buying of stuff and what your income allows you to get in discretionary goods is pretty dramatic.

c) basically comparable to US if not lower corporate and investment taxation. Norway is an outlier here but they have outlier conditions with the oil dividend.

All in - you see high taxation and high allocations to universal services, but the high taxation applies very broadly and the tradeoff is how little is left over for discretionary consumption. They don't treat investment particularly different than our current state if 30% ish cap gains taxation and we are outlier high in corporate tax rates.

Edit here's a good thing: https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinav ... -spending/

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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 11:32

According to the Tax Foundation, our top corporate tax rate is now well below the average tax rates of the EU, OECD, G20 and G7.

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-inc ... orld-2017/
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 29 Jan 2019, 11:37

Wait, where you see the world being higher than 38.9% in that link?

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Aresen » 29 Jan 2019, 11:41

Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:00
Warren wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:48
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
When you inherit property, it is immediately valued at the price on the day you inherited it, not the purchase price. So if you inherit $10M worth of shares of stock that were purchased for $1 each, if you sell it, there will never be any taxes paid on those capital gains.
Um. Doesn't the estate have to recognize the capital gain and pay taxes on it before paying out to the heirs?
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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 11:47

JasonL wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:37
Wait, where you see the world being higher than 38.9% in that link?
Our top corporate tax rate has been 21% for over a year. Also average is different than statutory top rate.
Last edited by Mo on 29 Jan 2019, 11:49, edited 1 time in total.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Mo
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Mo » 29 Jan 2019, 11:48

Aresen wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:41
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:00
Warren wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:48
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
When you inherit property, it is immediately valued at the price on the day you inherited it, not the purchase price. So if you inherit $10M worth of shares of stock that were purchased for $1 each, if you sell it, there will never be any taxes paid on those capital gains.
Um. Doesn't the estate have to recognize the capital gain and pay taxes on it before paying out to the heirs?
Not unless they sell the holdings.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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JasonL
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by JasonL » 29 Jan 2019, 11:49

Aresen wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:41
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:00
Warren wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:48
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
When you inherit property, it is immediately valued at the price on the day you inherited it, not the purchase price. So if you inherit $10M worth of shares of stock that were purchased for $1 each, if you sell it, there will never be any taxes paid on those capital gains.
Um. Doesn't the estate have to recognize the capital gain and pay taxes on it before paying out to the heirs?
No. Stepped up basis applies at time of death not time of transfer. Estates selling assets for cash disbursements get current market value as cost basis.

Edit: estates selling assets get the date of death as cost basis.

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Aresen
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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Aresen » 29 Jan 2019, 11:56

Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:48
Aresen wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:41
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 10:00
Warren wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 09:48
Mo wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 05:37
Honestly, the best way to manage the wealth tax is tax cap gains as income (inflation adjusted) and eliminate estate tax step-up basis.


What does that mean?
When you inherit property, it is immediately valued at the price on the day you inherited it, not the purchase price. So if you inherit $10M worth of shares of stock that were purchased for $1 each, if you sell it, there will never be any taxes paid on those capital gains.
Um. Doesn't the estate have to recognize the capital gain and pay taxes on it before paying out to the heirs?
Not unless they sell the holdings.
Wow. In Canada, the capital gains (and losses) have to be recognized and all taxes paid. One of the important things to put in your will is giving the executor the power of 'election', meaning he/she can choose the time to dispose of the asset. Otherwise, Revenue Canada deems that the asset was sold at the close of business on the day of death, which can lead to awkward situations. (e.g. The person dies on X day when the stock closes at 100. Three months later, when the executor actually sells it, the stock is at 50. If there's no 'election', then taxes are due based on the 100 valuation.)
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Never bring a knife to a joke fight" - dhex

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Re: Elizabeth Warren's "Accountable Capitalism Act"

Post by Warren » 10 Feb 2019, 14:01

It was a perfectly good name until that no talent assclown declared her candidacy for president.
Why should I change? She's the one that sucks.
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