Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

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JasonL
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by JasonL » 02 Jul 2018, 13:55

I think you are giving them a pass on what is clearly a formal shift in philosophy.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Warren » 02 Jul 2018, 14:03

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
02 Jul 2018, 13:42
I think you all are making too big a deal about where a private organization is spending it's limited resources in a time when it is being pressed on all fronts.
I don't see how the latter mitigates the former. If anything it's an aggravating factor.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 02 Jul 2018, 14:07

If I want to see a private organization spend resources supporting my priorities then I should find one that shares my priorities and donate to them. Meanwhile i should shut up about free speech and let the DEMAND KURVE settle this.
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JasonL
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by JasonL » 02 Jul 2018, 14:17

This is not like hating the implicit Jesus when buying a chicken sandwich, it’s like hating the chicken sandwich.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by lunchstealer » 02 Jul 2018, 14:55

The thing is that the ACLU has traditionally defended Nazis and the Klan because those are the edge cases where nasty precedents get set that then get applied to much more sympathetic speakers. If you wait to defend speakers until you get to sympathetic cases, the damage will be done and you'll have a much harder time getting around the holes that were chipped in the First Amendment while the ACLU was being picky with its limited resources.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 04 Aug 2018, 14:48

Ugh, this is ungood. I'm sure I'm second to nobody at this forum, regarding my utter loathing of catcallers and those who defend them -- but I've never called for it to be made illegal, whereas yesterday the ACLU posted (and then swiftly deleted) a tweet suggesting they have different ideas: NPR tweeted a story/headline saying "Catcalling is now a crime in France, and is punishable by fines of up to 750 Euros (more than $870)," and someone on the ACLU Twitter feed re-tweeted that with the comment "Your move, America."

https://reason.com/blog/2018/08/03/aclu ... eech-tweet
As obnoxious as catcalling is, the government simply can't prevent men from talking to women in public. This is something that many anti-catcalling groups understand explicitly, which is why they often oppose attempts criminalize such behavior.

So it's pretty telling that the ACLU could forget, even for a moment, that banning catcalling would be a significant blow to civil liberties, and would likely undermine other important goals, like criminal justice reform. (In the U.S. at least, the government would disproportionately arrest poor people, immigrants, and people of color for catcalling.)

Yes, I am aware that a single tweet does not indicate a broad structural shift in the ACLU's thinking: most likely this was done by one social media editor. I am still astonished that such a person—someone who is deeply confused about what the ACLU ostensibly stands for—would find themselves in the position of running the ACLU's Twitter feed. Did free speech not come up during the job interview?
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 04 Aug 2018, 15:18

OTOH, I did get a pretty personalized and candid response from the ACLU President when I wrote to her about free speech concerns. I think there are plenty of people there still fighting the good fight. But it is baffling to me that somebody who is OK with speech codes would even WANT a job doing social media for the ACLU.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Hugh Akston » 04 Aug 2018, 15:34

To be fair, that tweet was deleted. So I imagine the communications underboss had to take the social media intern aside and explain to her that advocating for speech bans is the opposite of what the ACLU does.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 04 Aug 2018, 15:38

Hugh Akston wrote:
04 Aug 2018, 15:34
To be fair, that tweet was deleted.
I did mention that. But, as Thoreau said, it's weird that anyone who'd get a job (or an internship) at the ACLU would've wanted to make such a tweet in the first place. It's like someone at an atheist organization tweeting "America always has been and always must be a Christian nation" -- if you believe that, why the hell do you have the job you do?
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Kolohe » 04 Aug 2018, 16:57

I mean, I'm not going to fault an intern for only slightly misreading the room.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Mo » 04 Aug 2018, 17:36

Maybe it’s different in the media world, but in the normal part of the private sector, social media people don’t know fuck all what the core of the company does.
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thoreau
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 04 Aug 2018, 17:49

Mo wrote:Maybe it’s different in the media world, but in the normal part of the private sector, social media people don’t know fuck all what the core of the company does.
This is true.
Kolohe wrote:I mean, I'm not going to fault an intern for only slightly misreading the room.
I suppose the social media intern might be a communications major who took the job because they want a career in communications, not civil liberties activism. Maybe all they know is that the ACLU is, like, liberal and stuff.

But if the kid is pre-law, I'm going to cry.
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Mo
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Mo » 28 Aug 2018, 06:05

The ACLU is standing up for the NRA in New York.

https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/nra ... icus-brief
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Aug 2018, 22:09

That's promising, since the NRA is getting to be a big target for Team Blue. I see people on that side of the aisle straight-facedly arguing as if the NRA has always been some kind of Russian conspiracy.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 28 Aug 2018, 22:33

Good news indeed. I'm not a fan of the NRA these days, but their speech is undeniably in the realm of the First Amendment.
Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 22:09
I see people on that side of the aisle straight-facedly arguing as if the NRA has always been some kind of Russian conspiracy.
OFFS. The NRA, like much of the right these days, has proven to be usefully idiotic for Russians, but even I know that this is a new thing, a symptom of the deeper rot in American institutions.

That said, it's pretty hilarious to see an organization that sells itself as a patriotic defender of American freedom being successful in penetrating a Russian spy.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Eric the .5b » 29 Aug 2018, 15:46

thoreau wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 22:33
Good news indeed. I'm not a fan of the NRA these days, but their speech is undeniably in the realm of the First Amendment.
Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Aug 2018, 22:09
I see people on that side of the aisle straight-facedly arguing as if the NRA has always been some kind of Russian conspiracy.
OFFS. The NRA, like much of the right these days, has proven to be usefully idiotic for Russians, but even I know that this is a new thing, a symptom of the deeper rot in American institutions.
It's a performative or signaling claim. Like the people who say Trump rigged the election in that many words, or that Obama was a secret Kenyan Muslim, or that Bush rigged his reelection, etc.

They hate the NRA for being the modern NRA. They hated the NRA before the current leadership even, ever since it switched to opposing gun control. This is just a way to express the current fever pitch of hostility.

I'm honestly not sure whether this behavior is hilarious or disturbing, but there it is.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 19 Nov 2018, 10:36

Drunk man shouts "Heil Hitler! Heil Trump!" during intermission in a crowded theater, thinking that people will realize he was indicating dislike of Trump.

Security, quite understandably, escorts him out. Police issue him what amounts to a warning, and the theater permanently bans him.

So far, so good.

The state chapter of the ACLU is not pleased. Why, you might ask? Are they upset that his ill-considered attempt at protest was met with a (completely reasonable, IMHO) police response?

No. They think the police should have been tougher on him:
“More should have been done,” said Dana Vickers Shelley, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Maryland.

While such speech is protected under the First Amendment, the man could easily have been charged with disorderly conduct for the act of disrupting the play, Shelley said. Instead, he was given, she said, “what sounds like a ticket for jaywalking — or less.”
Look, I have no doubt that the police could have done more, and I'll let lawyers sort out whether it would be allowed under existing law, but I would hope that the ACLU (of all organizations) would be OK with the police erring on the side of leniency for a really, really dumb attempt at protest by a drunk, middle-aged man with no criminal record. Yes, yes, he literally yelled something inflammatory in the proverbial crowded theater, which does justify some sort of response, but the response was basically "OK, he clearly meant something different, and the theater manager has already banned him. Let's let it go."

Also, this is not an ACLU social media intern. This is the executive director of a state chapter. Not quite the innermost circle of the organization, but also not some 22 year-old communications major who wanted to intern at a non-profit and isn't entirely sure what's so civil about liberties. This is somebody who should know better.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Warren » 19 Nov 2018, 11:02

The ACLU has abandoned it's historical mission and is taking it's place as the legal vanguard of Antifa styled fascism. It is now exactly what it was chartered to oppose. Expecting the ACLU to be concerned with civil liberties is now like expecting Republicans to be concerned with fiscal irresponsibility.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jasper » 19 Nov 2018, 14:41

Look thoreau, you just cant yell "Heil Trump!" in a crowded theater. There's lawz.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 19 Nov 2018, 14:54

Agreed. And if there's one thing the ACLU stands for, it's prosecuting violations of the law to the maximum extent allowed.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Nov 2018, 16:07

thoreau wrote:
19 Nov 2018, 10:36
Also, this is not an ACLU social media intern. This is the executive director of a state chapter. Not quite the innermost circle of the organization, but also not some 22 year-old communications major who wanted to intern at a non-profit and isn't entirely sure what's so civil about liberties. This is somebody who should know better.
Yes, that's more significant and concerning. Though it is just the Maryland chapter.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by tr0g » 19 Nov 2018, 19:25

I’d say the ACLU opposing the Title IX reforms they’re implementing is a bigger problem. After all, the new reforms ‘inappropriately favor the accused’.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Eric the .5b » 19 Nov 2018, 19:42

Kinda already covered ground.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Kolohe » 21 Nov 2018, 07:54

https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-techn ... nd-rest-us
Edward Snowden Explains Blockchain to His Lawyer — and the Rest of Us
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Warren » 21 Nov 2018, 09:30

Kolohe wrote:
21 Nov 2018, 07:54
https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy-techn ... nd-rest-us
Edward Snowden Explains Blockchain to His Lawyer — and the Rest of Us
That's probably the best 'written for a collie' explanation I've read. The man has a fine sense of humor.
He glosses over an important point though
It is practically impossible to remove an earlier block from the chain without also destroying every block that was created after that point and convincing everyone else in the network to agree that your alternate version of the history is the correct one.
Or at least most everyone to agree. And there in lies your confidence of trust. How many, and how diverse, are the people in your network? A blockchain maintained by a small number of people with common interest is not to be trusted.
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