Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

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thoreau
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 30 Jul 2019, 13:23

They are going 100% on letting transwomen play competitive sports alongside ciswomen.



This is a far more complicated issue than they make it out to be.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 30 Jul 2019, 13:23

They are going 100% on letting transwomen play competitive sports alongside ciswomen.



This is a far more complicated issue than they make it out to be.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Dangerman » 30 Jul 2019, 13:45

I think a third and fourth category for trans people is the best way forward, so folks are competing against people with similar physiologies, which is the point of sex based categories in the first place.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by JasonL » 30 Jul 2019, 14:06

Having that view is fine. Staking it out as a principle of civil liberties is a bridge too far. You are trading forms of injustice not creating a remedy with no fairness tradeoffs. I have no horse in that race, but the trans women are women thing seems obviously wrong to me in terms of life experience, how the patriarchy works and so forth, entirely independent of one's desire to categorize biological traits.

If trans men are men do they become part of the problem?

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Dangerman » 30 Jul 2019, 16:14

My question is 'what is a woman?'

Nobody likes that question.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by dhex » 30 Jul 2019, 17:02

unpopular not very hot take: transwomen in mma may very well get a bio woman killed some day.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by lunchstealer » 30 Jul 2019, 17:57

Given the rationale for women’s categories in sports, I think some considerations short of a rush to judgement on absolutist grounds is called for.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Mo » 30 Jul 2019, 18:24

Aren’t the rules for trans women such that you have to be on hormone therapy for years and so far, trans women have not done well in sports? So far, the most athletically superior women are cis women with outlier hormone levels.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by dhex » 30 Jul 2019, 19:45

Mo wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 18:24
Aren’t the rules for trans women such that you have to be on hormone therapy for years and so far, trans women have not done well in sports? So far, the most athletically superior women are cis women with outlier hormone levels.
I think that came into alignment in mma post Fallon fox. She did have one tko iirc against her but she won two at least two fights with knockouts

It's not ever going to be a common thing, but I actually agree with rogan on this point. It's dangerous and possibly insane, even within the confines of a sport that is already both of those things.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by nicole » 30 Jul 2019, 19:48

Mo wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 18:24
Aren’t the rules for trans women such that you have to be on hormone therapy for years and so far, trans women have not done well in sports? So far, the most athletically superior women are cis women with outlier hormone levels.
Seventeen states including CT use a self-ID standard for high school sports participation. The NCAA has a standard involving hormone level requirements.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Eric the .5b » 30 Jul 2019, 19:57

Can someone please clarify the fear, here, beyond dhex's concern that weight classes in ten-pound increments aren't enough to guarantee safety in MMA?

I see people on Twitter complaining about teh trannies taking over women's sports, but that doesn't seem plausible. Trangender folks make up something like 0.5-0.6% of the public, and I really have never seen anything to suggest that transwomen are more interested in sports than anyone else. They also have a wide range of ability in sports. After all, I can promise you from my own experience that just being born with a dick doesn't make someone an athletic powerhouse. (There's probably no sport that ciswomen athletes couldn't beat me like a rented mule at, most certainly including MMA.)

I also see people on Twitter complaining about unfair advantages thanks to body type. But, even beyond issues of hormone treatment, we already shrug at the fact that your ability to compete in various sports, no matter your training, fitness, and dedication, is still heavily affected by your body type. If you're a midget, you'll never play pro basketball. If you have a large cup size and/or wide hips, you're not going to go anywhere in women's gymnastics. To be blunt, it's sports—"fairness" is a really relative term.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by dhex » 30 Jul 2019, 21:25

Yeah I don't give a shit about soccer, just sports where people could get beaten unconscious as part of the game.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by JasonL » 30 Jul 2019, 21:55

A thing can be unreasonable accommodation without being the end of things. If a sport can create a framework wherein it seeks to be as fair as possible by way of a set of rules, I don’t think there is a compelling reason why any outside authority should prohibit leagues from evaluating bio male vs bio female development under those terms. I think the standard of universal admittance (men and women compete) is fair but have questions about this kind of rule in many sports. It’s crazy talk and dangerous in fighting or wrestling or other combat sports. I would have similar concerns in collision sports like football or rugby. If the variances are significant enough to be dangerous in collisions and combat, it’s hard to say they aren’t unfair in a lot of other cases.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 01 Aug 2019, 23:20

Mo wrote:
30 Jul 2019, 18:24
Aren’t the rules for trans women such that you have to be on hormone therapy for years and so far, trans women have not done well in sports?
I know that in Connecticut, where there was/is a lawsuit over the matter, two trans girls allowed to join a girl's high school track team immediately broke records. I haven't been able to find by how much (granted, I didn't spend THAT much time searching).
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Aresen » 01 Aug 2019, 23:31

Trans women in sports is a minefield I will not enter. It is the Israel vs Palestine of the gender wars.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by dead_elvis » 02 Aug 2019, 01:23

Aresen wrote:
01 Aug 2019, 23:31
Trans women in sports is a minefield I will not enter.
I won't enter it because it soooo doesn't matter except to people who put too much emphasis on records or winning over personal growth and participation. It reminds me of how excited I was as a kid listening to American Top 40. Or sports records. Then you grow up and realize none of it fucking matters.

Like whatever, so the other team has someone who dominates and you think that's unfair. Back in the day there was always that opponent there and it had nothing to do with gender politics, so get over it, it's not going to determine your life, and if it does you're a moron.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 02 Aug 2019, 17:55

I don't give a damn about sports per se (personally, I think athletics should be completely divorced from schools anyway), but I still have deep qualms with any philosophy that requires the outright denial/negation of reality. And trying to claim "There are NO inherent strength or speed differentials between healthy biological males and healthy biological females of the same age, size and etc." is an outright denial of reality.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 02 Aug 2019, 18:02

To make an analogy: I am guessing everyone currently posting here is opposed to "racism," defined as "the idea that your skin color or ethnic background has ANYTHING to do with your worth as a human being, your intelligence or character, or whether you deserve equal civil and legal rights" ... but I nonetheless have DEEP concerns about any philosophy which states "It is racist for Jennifer to think her pale pasty ass needs more protection from the Georgia summer sun than someone whose skin naturally contains significantly more melanin" or "It is racist for medical professionals to study the growing body of anecdotal evidence suggesting certain heart-problem medications which work very well for white men of European ancestry actually don't seem to do much for black men of African ancestry." It's basically Harrison Bergeron in reverse, when "all people are created equal" must only be interpreted as "all people are EXACTLY the same in every way."
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Aresen » 02 Aug 2019, 18:21

Jennifer wrote:
02 Aug 2019, 17:55
I don't give a damn about sports per se (personally, I think athletics should be completely divorced from schools anyway), but I still have deep qualms with any philosophy that requires the outright denial/negation of reality. And trying to claim "There are NO inherent strength or speed differentials between healthy biological males and healthy biological females of the same age, size and etc." is an outright denial of reality.
Sports are fun and people like to see a sport done well. People also have a sense of what is 'fair' (However imperfectly 'fair' is framed.) Trans persons in women's sports violates our current conception of 'fair.'
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 02 Aug 2019, 18:28

Aresen wrote:
02 Aug 2019, 18:21
Jennifer wrote:
02 Aug 2019, 17:55
I don't give a damn about sports per se (personally, I think athletics should be completely divorced from schools anyway), but I still have deep qualms with any philosophy that requires the outright denial/negation of reality. And trying to claim "There are NO inherent strength or speed differentials between healthy biological males and healthy biological females of the same age, size and etc." is an outright denial of reality.
Sports are fun and people like to see a sport done well. People also have a sense of what is 'fair' (However imperfectly 'fair' is framed.) Trans persons in women's sports violates our current conception of 'fair.'
I'd go so far as to add: telling cisgirls that if they can't beat a transgirl in athletics, that's only because the cisgirl didn't work hard enough is outright gaslighting. May as well pretend laziness and a lack of stick-to-it-iveness are the only reasons you personally have never been able to flap your arms hard enough to lift off the ground and take flight -- there are no physical limitations holding you down, only your own character flaws.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Highway » 02 Aug 2019, 19:29

I completely agree with the points that dhex and Jason have with regards to brutality sports. But in everything else, my biggest problem with this whole brouhaha against transwomen competing in the women's category because people will be incentivized to 'change' their gender and compete against women because they'll get easy wins is that it's plain-ass made up. There's no transwoman who's dominating anything. Maybe they win sometimes, but they also lose a lot (and it's to the point where transwomen are having to point out all the times they have lost to get people off their backs, which still doesn't help). I think half of the people making an outright fuss about it are dad bod guys who think "Well, *I* could win women's sports if I could compete. It's not fair that this other guy claims he's a woman and then gets to win." Even though they don't win. It almost seems that it's forgotten that most of these people were athletes as guys, and have been training, so if they do win, maybe it has something to do with that? Not that they're competing against weak flowers.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 02 Aug 2019, 19:41

Highway wrote:
02 Aug 2019, 19:29
I completely agree with the points that dhex and Jason have with regards to brutality sports. But in everything else, my biggest problem with this whole brouhaha against transwomen competing in the women's category because people will be incentivized to 'change' their gender and compete against women because they'll get easy wins is that it's plain-ass made up.
I agree there's no epidemic of macho guys pretending to be girls solely to trounce the girls' high school sports teams -- but regarding that Connecticut case, as I understand it the two transgirls who joined the team did both not only win, but break records. And, according to my IRL-from-Connecticut Facebook friend who informed me that I'm a transphobe and a misogynist for thinking "human sexual dimorphism" is an actual real biological thing rather than a patriarchal social construct, the cisgirls on that team not only have no reason to so much as raise an eyebrow let alone complain, they should actually be inspired by the fact that their two transgirl teammates broke records set by cisgirls. Which, I maintain, denies reality.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by JasonL » 02 Aug 2019, 19:46

There’s a part of me that feels like if this were all about identity you’d see more parity in attempts for trans women competing against bio dudes.

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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by thoreau » 02 Aug 2019, 19:56

There's something to be said for accepting that sometimes you will go up against people who have an edge over you, and good sportsmanship/sportswomanship/etc. is about losing gracefully. If the question is whether we should weep for the ciswomen who lose, well, every contest has losers aplenty. And winning athletes are often biological outliers.

But I get queasy when we go from telling women to accept losses to entering transwomen's names into record books. Losing happens at every tournament, but there's a reason why we keep separate records for men and women. We want to record the heights of male and female achievement, and we separate those achievements for a reason. Losing is a fact of competition with people, and any decent athlete needs to be socialized to accept that fact. However, separate records are kept for reasons of biology, not socialization.

I don't think that transwomen will crowd ciswomen out of teams (there aren't enough to do that), but they could top lists of record times and whatnot, and something feels wrong about not at least putting an asterisk next to their times.

It gets messy because organized athletics are mostly about teamwork and discipline and whatnot, and I don't want to argue for excluding transwomen from that. But I have heard that middling males routinely outperform top females, so it's quite likely that while there might be only a handful of transwomen in a league the harder-working among them could routinely beat even the most exceptional ciswomen.

Giving them the trophy feels right; they did run faster. But putting them in the record books feels wrong. They aren't really showcasing the best of what a female body can do, as we traditionally understand the notion.
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Re: Is the ACLU getting too Woke?

Post by Jennifer » 02 Aug 2019, 19:58

What's especially baffling to me is that, as I understand it, the whole point of trans and cis is that sex and gender are NOT necessarily identical, right? "Sex" refers to biology, whereas "gender" has to do with social or behavioral stuff. So a transgirl is one whose sex is male but gender is female, whereas a cisgirl is one whose sex and gender are both female, correct? Where physical matters are concerned, including strength and speed (and also, "If you want to become a biological parent sans medical intervention, precisely which reproductive role would you play in the creation of the new kid?") "sex" matters whereas "gender" does not. Same thing regarding the question "Hmm, I see someone wearing high heels and a dress -- is that okay, or should I completely freak out? Depends what the person's pee-pee looks like" -- the question of who "can" wear a dress is merely one of gender, not anything inherent to sex. Ditto the sexist idea that women must not wear pants, those are for men only.

But --- especially when talking about people who are not having hormone treatments to bring their sex more in line with their gender -- I don't understand the trans-rights attitude "It's not enough to merely agree sex and gender aren't necessarily the same in all people; you must also deny biological-sex differences in addition to opposing strictly mandated gender roles."
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