Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

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Mo
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 09 May 2019, 07:52

JasonL wrote:
08 May 2019, 11:43
Right. It's part of Po Mo Motte and Bailey to say something like "even mathematics is socially constructed" as a way of suggesting there is no truth outside of power dynamics, but then to retreat promptly when pressed on "ok, so lets dive in to what exactly you are suggesting by comparing the statements "dolls are for girls" and "the square of the length of a hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides".

You don't get very far trying to suggest those things are comparably true under a wide range of ideas about truth but people like to invoke it so that it seems like you can't ever argue empiricism or reason against their mono lens of social power.
Motte and bailey is fast approaching "correlation does not equal causation" as the most annoying way for people to deflect from being challenged. Also, ironic because Weinstein motte and baileys Yglesias by changing "math is a social construct" to "mathematical truths are a social construct."
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by dhex » 09 May 2019, 08:09

social construct throws people off because they hear "fake" instead of "social construct".

of course years of misuse by people who are saying "fake" but instead use "social construct" didn't help much.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 08:41

The misuse and confusion is from all sides. The way people of the left like to use the post modern critique, it very much is like “everything is fake” or “girls and dolls has similar in truth value or coherence to the Pythagorean Theorem”. No expressed idea has content other than its social context.

So, when people react like that’s what you are saying - you should probably expect that reaction. The “if pomo people think gravity is socially constructed let them jump without a parachute” thing is dumb if taken in context of the philosophical post modern position but totally valid as a critique of how the argument keeps being presented.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 09 May 2019, 09:16

JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 08:41
The misuse and confusion is from all sides. The way people of the left like to use the post modern critique, it very much is like “everything is fake” or “girls and dolls has similar in truth value or coherence to the Pythagorean Theorem”. No expressed idea has content other than its social context.

So, when people react like that’s what you are saying - you should probably expect that reaction. The “if pomo people think gravity is socially constructed let them jump without a parachute” thing is dumb if taken in context of the philosophical post modern position but totally valid as a critique of how the argument keeps being presented.
Part of the point is the IDW pretends they’re better than just some idiots being performatively triggered, but that’s pretty much exactly what they are.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 09 May 2019, 09:53

nicole wrote:
09 May 2019, 09:16
JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 08:41
The misuse and confusion is from all sides. The way people of the left like to use the post modern critique, it very much is like “everything is fake” or “girls and dolls has similar in truth value or coherence to the Pythagorean Theorem”. No expressed idea has content other than its social context.

So, when people react like that’s what you are saying - you should probably expect that reaction. The “if pomo people think gravity is socially constructed let them jump without a parachute” thing is dumb if taken in context of the philosophical post modern position but totally valid as a critique of how the argument keeps being presented.
Part of the point is the IDW pretends they’re better than just some idiots being performatively triggered, but that’s pretty much exactly what they are.
Yeah, the best example of this is when the dude on Quillette said that they're just as closed-minded as they claim their opponents are because they only talk to other people that agree with them on the things they care about (hating SJWs) and that there would be value in them engaging with people they disagree with*. And the responses were basically, "Nuh uh, we disagree about lots of stuff, that we just happen to not discuss. Also, SJWs are irredeemable and not worth engaging."

* Which is ostensibly the thing that the IDW supposedly stand for
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 10:13

To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result. I agree IDW is trying to do a "safe space" for their content while criticizing the safe space claims of SJW types, but there are different dynamics in play in terms of "what does safe mean here".

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 May 2019, 10:25

JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:13
To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result. I agree IDW is trying to do a "safe space" for their content while criticizing the safe space claims of SJW types, but there are different dynamics in play in terms of "what does safe mean here".
Different power dynamics, you might say.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2019, 10:30

You guys would need an IDW if you'd been in some of the conversations that I've been in. A colleague tossed out a bunch of incoherent claims that more or less amounted to "Just about any adult is smart enough to major in physics", and when I pushed back (having certain male students and their struggles with algebra very much on my mind) I was told that I am no better than a high school teacher who said my colleague's niece is too pretty for physics.

After that conversation, Quillette is a cool, refreshing glass of iced tea while lounging on the beach to watch the sunset.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Hugh Akston » 09 May 2019, 10:36

Jadagul wrote:
09 May 2019, 04:31
Hugh Akston wrote:
08 May 2019, 23:06
Jadagul wrote:
08 May 2019, 22:17
That doesn't really mean that math is "subjective". There are correct answers to questions. But math can be as objective as it is precisely because it's socially and culturally constructed: because we built the rules, we can state them precisely and know exactly what they are, and have full agreement on the rules (most of the time), and so it's easy to tell when people are breaking them.
That...doesn't make math objective, at least not as I understand the term, which is 'existing independent of the mind.' Are you saying that math is objective because it exists independent of any given mind?
Math _claims_ are objective because they all, explicitly or implicitly, have the form "If you make these set of assumptions and follow these rules then you draw those conclusions". It's not asserting that the assumptions are true or that the rules are the best. And a lot of math takes the form of saying "Well, what if we use some completely different and unreasonable set of assumptions? What happens then?"

Now, some mathematicians will argue about which of these assumptions and rules are "true". And I am contending that those arguments are incoherent. But even people who think the axiom of choice is, like, morally and Platonically wrong can still agree about what its implications are. So those claims are objective and mind-independent, at least as much as anything is.
Right but again that's not what objective means. You can make the same matrix of rules argument for logical syllogisms, legal decisions, grammar, and phrases like "all bachelors are unmarried men." That they possess a positive truth value within their established and more or less agreed-upon systems of rule makes them true to a significant extent, but that still doesn't make them objectively true.

I agree that it's incoherent to argue whether a proposition is capital-T True without reference to human standards and measures, because we can never know a world beyond that which we perceive/conceive. But it's still useful to have that standard around to remind us not to get too big for our epistemic britches.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 09 May 2019, 10:39

Hugh Akston wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:25
JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:13
To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result. I agree IDW is trying to do a "safe space" for their content while criticizing the safe space claims of SJW types, but there are different dynamics in play in terms of "what does safe mean here".
Different power dynamics, you might say.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 10:56

Mo wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:39
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:25
JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:13
To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result. I agree IDW is trying to do a "safe space" for their content while criticizing the safe space claims of SJW types, but there are different dynamics in play in terms of "what does safe mean here".
Different power dynamics, you might say.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Entirely because one group of people has the view that all words they dislike are weapons so all types of responses are justified.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2019, 11:06

I'm prepared to cede this particular match between Weinstein and Yglesias to Yglesias. Much as I dislike Yglesias, Weinstein isn't an IDWer that I follow or give a shit about, and I do agree that for reasonable definitions of "cultural social construct" math is indeed a cultural construct.

My bigger question, though, is "So what?" Once we've established that Weinstein isn't as clever as he thinks he is, and that even Matt Yglesias can have valid insights, what is the next step in a line of thinking that explores math as a cultural social construct?

If you're a philosopher or mathematician then there are some profound places to go, and since Jadagul is an academic mathematician I think he should go there. Even I, as a heavy user of math, should and do ponder how this toolkit depends on its assumptions.

In the wider world, though, when I read articles critiquing math or science as cultural social products, it's rare that the next step is "So let's explore our axioms a bit more because it's fascinating to think what spinor algebra might be like if we tweaked it..." Usually it's some point about education, power structures, culture, and a desperate attempt to deflect attention from the fact that kids are getting bad grades in a subject that has well-defined answers to well-defined problems, a subject that has been taught successfully to and further developed by people from a great many cultural backgrounds.

So, by all means, if Matt Yglesias wants to pwn Eric Weinstein, he should do that. But I can't fault Bayesians who hear "math" and "cultural social construct" in some setting that isn't a seminar on the foundations of mathematics and think "Oh, crap, there's a 95% chance that this is about to get dumb."

EDIT TO REPLACE "CULTURAL" WITH "SOCIAL" PER THE ORIGINAL POST
Last edited by thoreau on 09 May 2019, 13:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 11:12

So, by all means, if Matt Yglesias wants to pwn Eric Weinstein, he should do that. But I can't fault Bayesians who hear "math" and "cultural construct" in some setting that isn't a seminar on the foundations of mathematics and think "Oh, crap, there's a 95% chance that this is about to get dumb."
Exactly. The dumb thing is actually how it is used about 95% of the time. Similar to the "academic definition of white supremacy" vs "how that term is used to mean a whole bunch of stuff suggesting neo nazism".

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2019, 11:18

BTW, the most culturally-biased part of physics is arguably the Copenhagen interpretation. I've seen a few interesting articles on how it arose from certain cultural and philosophical trends of the 1920's. It's stuff that we need to take more seriously.

At the same time, my inner Bayesian knows that when somebody starts talking about physics and cultural social constructs, it's very rare that they're about to discuss the Copenhagen Interpretation, let alone the disproportionate interest in 2D electron gases subject to high magnetic fields.
Last edited by thoreau on 09 May 2019, 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 09 May 2019, 11:49

JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:13
To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result.
And people on the right have spent literally decades not just trying to get people they disagree with fired or cancelled or whatever, but telling everyone "these sorts of boycotts and collective actions are how you're supposed to deal with people you find offensive." Which makes the idea that their argument is "doing this is wrong" (as opposed to "people like me don't deserve this treatment") rather hard to swallow.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 09 May 2019, 12:05

JasonL wrote:
Mo wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:39
Hugh Akston wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:25
JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 10:13
To be fair, one of these groups of people is trying to get people they disagree with fired or canceled or whatever and the other is trying to be able to say things without having that be the result. I agree IDW is trying to do a "safe space" for their content while criticizing the safe space claims of SJW types, but there are different dynamics in play in terms of "what does safe mean here".
Different power dynamics, you might say.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Entirely because one group of people has the view that all words they dislike are weapons so all types of responses are justified.
And aside from FIRE, none of these people give a shit when anti-Israel speakers are petitioned to leave campus, students are arrested for protesting ICE agents being on campus, when legislators ask for professors get fired for calling the police racist or that the BLM guy just lost a court case and may be held liable because someone at a BLM committed a crime. So which side is it that believes all words are weapons?
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 12:37

For clarity- your view of words are weapons is it’s approximately a push between the tribes?

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 09 May 2019, 12:44

Yes. Which words are weapons is sports bar. Outside of a few weirdos, neither side disagrees with the statement. Despite being weirdos, the IDW peeps are not those weirdos or if they are, they get laryngitis when a lefty gets dinged.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 09 May 2019, 13:07

thoreau wrote:
09 May 2019, 11:06
I'm prepared to cede this particular match between Weinstein and Yglesias to Yglesias. Much as I dislike Yglesias, Weinstein isn't an IDWer that I follow or give a shit about, and I do agree that for reasonable definitions of "cultural construct" math is indeed a cultural construct.

My bigger question, though, is "So what?" Once we've established that Weinstein isn't as clever as he thinks he is, and that even Matt Yglesias can have valid insights, what is the next step in a line of thinking that explores math as a cultural construct?

If you're a philosopher or mathematician then there are some profound places to go, and since Jadagul is an academic mathematician I think he should go there. Even I, as a heavy user of math, should and do ponder how this toolkit depends on its assumptions.

In the wider world, though, when I read articles critiquing math or science as cultural products, it's rare that the next step is "So let's explore our axioms a bit more because it's fascinating to think what spinor algebra might be like if we tweaked it..." Usually it's some point about education, power structures, culture, and a desperate attempt to deflect attention from the fact that kids are getting bad grades in a subject that has well-defined answers to well-defined problems, a subject that has been taught successfully to and further developed by people from a great many cultural backgrounds.

So, by all means, if Matt Yglesias wants to pwn Eric Weinstein, he should do that. But I can't fault Bayesians who hear "math" and "cultural construct" in some setting that isn't a seminar on the foundations of mathematics and think "Oh, crap, there's a 95% chance that this is about to get dumb."
You can fault them for being the ones to help make it dumber.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 09 May 2019, 13:07

thoreau wrote:
09 May 2019, 11:18
BTW, the most culturally-biased part of physics is arguably the Copenhagen interpretation. I've seen a few interesting articles on how it arose from certain cultural and philosophical trends of the 1920's. It's stuff that we need to take more seriously.

At the same time, my inner Bayesian knows that when somebody starts talking about physics and cultural constructs, it's very rare that they're about to discuss the Copenhagen Interpretation, let alone the disproportionate interest in 2D electron gases subject to high magnetic fields.
Also, the posts were all about "social constructs," not "cultural constructs."
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2019, 13:17

nicole wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:07
thoreau wrote:
09 May 2019, 11:18
BTW, the most culturally-biased part of physics is arguably the Copenhagen interpretation. I've seen a few interesting articles on how it arose from certain cultural and philosophical trends of the 1920's. It's stuff that we need to take more seriously.

At the same time, my inner Bayesian knows that when somebody starts talking about physics and cultural constructs, it's very rare that they're about to discuss the Copenhagen Interpretation, let alone the disproportionate interest in 2D electron gases subject to high magnetic fields.
Also, the posts were all about "social constructs," not "cultural constructs."
I accept the correction.

I still think that my Bayesian point stands.
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 13:24

Mo wrote:
09 May 2019, 12:44
Yes. Which words are weapons is sports bar. Outside of a few weirdos, neither side disagrees with the statement. Despite being weirdos, the IDW peeps are not those weirdos or if they are, they get laryngitis when a lefty gets dinged.
Ahh - so, yeah - I'd put it at like 80/20 in practice. Not 100/0, not "there is no hypocrisy here", but not close. The entire left coalition has been taken over by identity politics and this is a fundamental not incidental feature of their views about life. The organizing principle of Social Justice types is that they get to determine allowable discourse period. There is no other real position.

I get it you can't disrepect the flag or soldiers and sometimes Israel on the right - but the scope of issues in play on the left is breathtaking - by design.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 09 May 2019, 13:26

JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:24
The entire left coalition has been taken over by identity politics and this is a fundamental not incidental feature of their views about life.
No, they haven't. The Extremely Online left has. The friendly neighborhood Blue who uses the internet mostly to get sports scores and shop has no idea that mansplaining is a serious crime.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 09 May 2019, 13:27

thoreau wrote:
09 May 2019, 11:06
I'm prepared to cede this particular match between Weinstein and Yglesias to Yglesias. Much as I dislike Yglesias, Weinstein isn't an IDWer that I follow or give a shit about, and I do agree that for reasonable definitions of "cultural social construct" math is indeed a cultural construct.

My bigger question, though, is "So what?" Once we've established that Weinstein isn't as clever as he thinks he is, and that even Matt Yglesias can have valid insights, what is the next step in a line of thinking that explores math as a cultural social construct?

If you're a philosopher or mathematician then there are some profound places to go, and since Jadagul is an academic mathematician I think he should go there. Even I, as a heavy user of math, should and do ponder how this toolkit depends on its assumptions.

In the wider world, though, when I read articles critiquing math or science as cultural social products, it's rare that the next step is "So let's explore our axioms a bit more because it's fascinating to think what spinor algebra might be like if we tweaked it..." Usually it's some point about education, power structures, culture, and a desperate attempt to deflect attention from the fact that kids are getting bad grades in a subject that has well-defined answers to well-defined problems, a subject that has been taught successfully to and further developed by people from a great many cultural backgrounds.

So, by all means, if Matt Yglesias wants to pwn Eric Weinstein, he should do that. But I can't fault Bayesians who hear "math" and "cultural social construct" in some setting that isn't a seminar on the foundations of mathematics and think "Oh, crap, there's a 95% chance that this is about to get dumb."

EDIT TO REPLACE "CULTURAL" WITH "SOCIAL" PER THE ORIGINAL POST
All I'm saying here is, yes, there's a 95% chance things are about to get dumb, but that chance doesn't go down when the IDWer also starts talking bullshit. They are not doing what they claim to be wanting to do.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 09 May 2019, 13:32

thoreau wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:26
JasonL wrote:
09 May 2019, 13:24
The entire left coalition has been taken over by identity politics and this is a fundamental not incidental feature of their views about life.
No, they haven't. The Extremely Online left has. The friendly neighborhood Blue who uses the internet mostly to get sports scores and shop has no idea that mansplaining is a serious crime.
The extremely online randos, the media hubs, the academy and all of tech. I'm probably missing a few. Enough that you are politically doomed if you are economically left but don't say the right words.

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