Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

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JasonL
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 24 Aug 2018, 15:03

Their whole vibe seems to be something like "this guy was just drunk and you blew it all out of proportion and yeah maybe he put a knife in your face but don't be a diva about it" Whatever.

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Warren
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Warren » 24 Aug 2018, 15:06

Painboy wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 13:48
JasonL wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 13:07
All of that is in play because of the guy who threatened someone with a deadly weapon. Be cool doesn’t extend to that zone.
My suspicion is that this incident was an accumulation of things over time and pulling the knife was a response not to the single joke but to a broad pattern of earlier objectionable behavior. The latest being the straw that broke the back. Earlier warnings by others may have been ignored and so an angry inebriated person who has run out of ways to get those warnings across escalates it to the threat of phyiscal force. Not that that justifies pulling a knife, but to those familiar with the context of the situation it may have been seen as someone constantly poking the bull only to be surprised to finally get the horns.
There is a sharp well defined line made of neon with billboards for a thousand miles in every direction point out it's location. The guy with a knife in his hand is on one side of that line, and any and all offensive joking, and general douchebaggary is on the other. Not so much as a toe from either side is on the line.
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Jennifer
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2018, 15:09

JasonL wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:03
Their whole vibe seems to be something like "this guy was just drunk and you blew it all out of proportion and yeah maybe he put a knife in your face but don't be a diva about it" Whatever.
That's some weapons-grade gaslighting there.
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nicole
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 24 Aug 2018, 15:19

Dangerman wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:19
Nicole, I'm going to have to call the cops to report the actions I took in self defense if someone drew a knife on me. So there is no scenario where they don't get called unless you advocate just letting them attack you with a knife, which is what is happening the moment it comes out in his hand. There is no world where he is allowed to hold a knife to someone, then put it away and go about his business.
I mean, you say "there is no scenario," and "there is no world," but in real life, right or wrong, this sort of thing happens all the time. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Dangerman » 24 Aug 2018, 15:21

Oh sorry. No world where this occurs to me.

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Painboy
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Painboy » 24 Aug 2018, 16:13

nicole wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:19
Dangerman wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:19
Nicole, I'm going to have to call the cops to report the actions I took in self defense if someone drew a knife on me. So there is no scenario where they don't get called unless you advocate just letting them attack you with a knife, which is what is happening the moment it comes out in his hand. There is no world where he is allowed to hold a knife to someone, then put it away and go about his business.
I mean, you say "there is no scenario," and "there is no world," but in real life, right or wrong, this sort of thing happens all the time. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by dhex » 24 Aug 2018, 16:22

Knife pulling is one of those things where your best case scenario is dude puts knife away and you leave in one piece. Every other scenario is just fucking awful.

The sort of dingus who pulls a knife on someone over some verbal shit is not going to be amenable to not being a dingus.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by tr0g » 24 Aug 2018, 17:32

I am babysitting the wife is phone this afternoon while she sleeps off the outpatient surgery she had this morning. This thing would drive me insane if it was mine. She has notifications turned on for everything. No wonder she doesn’t respond to texts, they’re drowned in the flood.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Eric the .5b » 24 Aug 2018, 17:46

If the jokester has any brains, he'll stay away from those shitheads.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2018, 18:04

Eric the .5b wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 17:46
If the jokester has any brains, he'll stay away from those shitheads.
Anyone with any brains would stay away from those shitheads. "You said something annoying, so of COURSE I'm going to threaten you with a deadly weapon. You have no right to get upset." That's some fucked-up way of thinking.

Even in my strip-club days, when some of the people I had to associate with were definitely trashier than the company I generally kept before or since -- nobody had the attitude "Pulling a weapon on somebody is fine, but getting upset because somebody pulled a weapon on you is problematic behavior we simply cannot tolerate." (Actually, I recall ONE and only one woman with a similar attitude -- and she got fired for it.)
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Andrew » 24 Aug 2018, 18:49

Warren wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:06
There is a sharp well defined line made of neon with billboards for a thousand miles in every direction point out it's location. The guy with a knife in his hand is on one side of that line, and any and all offensive joking, and general douchebaggary is on the other. Not so much as a toe from either side is on the line.
There is a large contingent of people who believe that violence is a completely appropriate and acceptable response to speech they don't like. To rational adults, violence over sounds that came out of a facehole is on the wrong side of the line. To dangerous morons, though, the line is far different.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Aug 2018, 19:41

Highway wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 14:48
Yeah, I'm not going "out back" to talk to the guy who just pulled a knife on me one-on-one either. In fact, that's a good second reason to call the cops.
Yeah, here's about the only not-cops-based scenario.

Knife guy hands over the knife to someone and is immediately shuffled outside to wait for the uber that someone has already called for him. Two people, including the biggest not-knife-or-joke-guy dude, wait out side, while the door to the place stays locked until knife guy is long gone.

Knife guy then gives everyone two days to cool down then apologizes to everyone involved and promises never ever to carry anything arms-like ever again, including knife, gun, mag light, multi-tool, anything at all, generally but especially while drinking, and begins dealing with the fact that he can't be trusted to drink anything but maybe session beer, preferably 3.2 or NA, until he's old enough that being a drunk won't be dangerous to everyone around him.

"Hey, let's go where there's no one around and I'm gonna 'talk' to you," is a fucking scary situation. That no one stopped him from saying that to joke guy is a bad sign. Alcohol and all, but nobody had the stones to get that guy locked down.

mrs lunch suspects that it's a massive power dynamic, where the guy isn't just more liked than joke guy, but basically has a position of power within the group dynamics.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jadagul » 24 Aug 2018, 19:49

So there's a massive cultural disconnect here between people who think of interpersonal violence as "possible" and people who don't.

I think I told y'all once, several years ago, that my sister pulled a knife on me (from the other side of the room) over Christmas. She later told me that it hadn't occurred to her that I would consider that an actual threat---obviously she wasn't going to _hurt_ me with the knife; she doesn't even know how to use it. It was just, like, overly flamboyant gesticulation.

I don't think this is wise. Knifes are dangerous, and introducing one into a conflict is risking that someone else, reasonably, sees them as a threat. But I suspect that this group is sort of in my sister's mental space, where treating the introduction of a knife as an actual physical threat is a little silly because obviously no one would ever use one.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Aug 2018, 20:07

Which...

I kinda feel like is the difference between a man-child/woman-child and an actual grownup. Shit has consequences you guys.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2018, 20:09

Jadagul wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 19:49
So there's a massive cultural disconnect here between people who think of interpersonal violence as "possible" and people who don't.

I think I told y'all once, several years ago, that my sister pulled a knife on me (from the other side of the room) over Christmas. She later told me that it hadn't occurred to her that I would consider that an actual threat---obviously she wasn't going to _hurt_ me with the knife; she doesn't even know how to use it. It was just, like, overly flamboyant gesticulation.

I don't think this is wise. Knifes are dangerous, and introducing one into a conflict is risking that someone else, reasonably, sees them as a threat. But I suspect that this group is sort of in my sister's mental space, where treating the introduction of a knife as an actual physical threat is a little silly because obviously no one would ever use one.
Except there's (obviously) a huge difference between "Hey, I'm not threatening you with this knife!" when I and the knife are across the room from you, versus when I'm literally wielding the knife in your face.

Semi-related: this discussion of whether or not one should simply "expect" that hey, sometimes people are gonna hold a knife on you and that's just part of life actually reminded me of how WTF I felt when I read about that twit Jordan Peterson complaining how it's difficult for men to talk to women (as opposed to men), because with women you're not allowed to hit them if you disagree -- who the hell are you people associating with, if you expect literal physical violence as just an ordinary part of everyday social interaction?
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jadagul » 24 Aug 2018, 20:20

Jennifer: I feel like that's sort of the exact opposite difference.

Peterson is saying "of course some interactions will/should be resolved by violence." And that can lead to "and you shouldn't complain if sometimes people use violence to resolve disputes, because that's normal". And I can see that shading into "why would you call the cops? Stand up for yourself, you spineless pussy snitch."

My sister is on the opposite end of the spectrum---which is roughly "Of course no one is actually going to try to resolve disputes by violence. So even if active threats of violence are being made, it's unreasonable to take them seriously or treat them as actual threats."

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2018, 20:30

Jadagul wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 20:20
Jennifer: I feel like that's sort of the exact opposite difference.

Peterson is saying "of course some interactions will/should be resolved by violence." And that can lead to "and you shouldn't complain if sometimes people use violence to resolve disputes, because that's normal". And I can see that shading into "why would you call the cops? Stand up for yourself, you spineless pussy snitch."
More precisely, I wasn't talking about your sister, but Knifeman's friends as reported by Jason (at least, where their friend Knifeman is concerned, though I'd bet they would not apply the same leniency toward the same behavior from someone they don't like): "Well, duh, of course he's going to use a knife to menace you! This is a perfectly normal and acceptable thing to do, and thus it was WRONG for you to call the cops over it. And wrong for you to have refused to go talk to him alone."

Given that Jason said IIRC these are mostly millennial liberal-types, I'm thinking that if they have heard of Peterson, they don't like him at all. And would especially not like anyone seeing similarities between their attitudes and Peterson's.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 24 Aug 2018, 20:52

There are clearly people who don't see pulling out a knife the same way I do. I'll just announce formally here I have no sense of humor about that. If I'm armed and you come bring it out in a threatening manner I'm going to put some furniture between you and me and I'm going to shoot you unless you are really under control and de-escalate very quickly. If i'm not armed and you close and you seem out of control I will get myself cut to ribbons trying to kill you with my hands. There is no difference within 10 feet between gun lethality and knife lethality. I would never speak to any member of my family who pulled a knife on me. I would not stay in the same house with a spouse who did. Whatever you were before you are a person who threatened to kill me and took up an implement. It is fucking crazy to me that there's another way to see it.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Aresen » 24 Aug 2018, 20:59

Pull a knife on me and I will run. I will also call the cops once I am safe. I will seek the strongest possible restraining order against you and, until I have seen clear evidence of repentance and reform over a prolonged period (minimum five years), I will avoid you and advise others to do so.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 24 Aug 2018, 21:00

To be clear, yes, if you let me out and don't advance on me I'm just leaving. I am calling the cops.

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Jennifer
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 24 Aug 2018, 21:07

I too will call the cops and press charges if you pull a knife on me, and won't even turn in my decoder ring for saying that.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by lunchstealer » 24 Aug 2018, 21:55

I think I might make some calculus if there are people present who cops would unfairly target. I’m not calling cops to a black guy’s house because his white friend was a dips hit IF I was certain I was safe. The only person I want going to jail is the dumbass who deserves it.
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Tuco » 25 Aug 2018, 06:22

Hell, when some of the gals I've been with pull a knife on you, it's damn near like foreplay.

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JasonL
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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 25 Aug 2018, 09:04

Yeah I know that’s a thing and people dig it. It’s not my thing. More broadly I’ve never really gotten the crazy = hot thing. Crazy is just crazy.

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Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Ellie » 25 Aug 2018, 09:16

I'm JasonLian in my feelings about what it means when a knife gets involved, BUT I can assure you all that all my knives are so far overdue for a sharpening that if I did pull a knife on any of you, you wouldn't have anything to worry about anyway :lol:
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