Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 9539
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 11 Jul 2018, 19:59

Mass market deserts and fast food both taste worse with age.

User avatar
Ellie
Posts: 11133
Joined: 21 Apr 2010, 18:34

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Ellie » 11 Jul 2018, 20:34

I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

User avatar
dead_elvis
Posts: 940
Joined: 01 May 2010, 15:26

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by dead_elvis » 11 Jul 2018, 22:12

Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 20:34
Awesome :lol:
"Never forget: a war on undocumented immigrants by necessity is a war on all of our freedoms of association and movement."

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 14188
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Aresen » 07 Aug 2018, 11:20

WRT to the banning of Alex Jones from a variety of social media sites, I wonder how many people (on both sides of the argument) have reversed the positions they took when the Koch brothers pulled funding from PBS over the anti-Koch documentary.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Those who know history are doomed to deja vu. - the innominate one

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 22714
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 08 Aug 2018, 08:41

Aresen wrote:
07 Aug 2018, 11:20
WRT to the banning of Alex Jones from a variety of social media sites, I wonder how many people (on both sides of the argument) have reversed the positions they took when the Koch brothers pulled funding from PBS over the anti-Koch documentary.
The Koch NPR controversy is more akin to people getting upset at Disney for ABC not airing negative news about Disney World. The AJ on social media would be like the Kochs thing if Zuck was only spurred to action because Jones targeted him with conspiracy theories.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
dead_elvis
Posts: 940
Joined: 01 May 2010, 15:26

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by dead_elvis » 08 Aug 2018, 15:38

Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 20:34
<Williams and Ree: Ding-Dong Song>
Seeing this thread again reminds me of something we just played last week. Possibly the only Mass that features a tune about Bongs and Doobies. It was so hard not to laugh in front of the audience, it's just so awful.

"Never forget: a war on undocumented immigrants by necessity is a war on all of our freedoms of association and movement."

User avatar
Jake
Posts: 2524
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:38

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jake » 08 Aug 2018, 20:33

dead_elvis wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 15:38
Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2018, 20:34
<Williams and Ree: Ding-Dong Song>
Seeing this thread again reminds me of something we just played last week. Possibly the only Mass that features a tune about Bongs and Doobies. It was so hard not to laugh in front of the audience, it's just so awful.

If this is the music in heaven, let me just take this opportunity to swear eternal fealty to my new best pal, Beelzebub.
"TIL that it's genetically impossible for whales to have evolved from leg-having ancestors, millions of scientists are signing a petition to stop the teaching of evolution and evolution isn't real because Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews. Alternately, I met a moron at the museum." -- TIO

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7080
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 08 Aug 2018, 21:08

That sounds like the music that plays on hold when you call Heaven's front desk to request they bring you up more towels.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 15306
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by dhex » 09 Aug 2018, 10:25

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/ ... ia-1738374

if it is only 48k total that's a pretty good price presuming there's any fundraising value with him.
"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 22714
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Mo » 13 Aug 2018, 07:59

From the Infowars ToS:
If you violate these rules, your posts and/or user name will be deleted. Remember: you are a guest here. It is not censorship if you violate the rules and your post is deleted. All civilizations have rules and if you violate them you can expect to be ostracized from the tribe.
It's from a thoughtful post on alternatives to banning and why keep/ban is not a binary choice.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180 ... ices.shtml
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 15:12

I think deplatforming is a bad idea generally.

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7080
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 15:35

The increasing body of research that suggests that actively debating disagreement just solidifies people in the position they're already in leads me to think that Zuckerberg's "let everyone have a platform" is an unsatisfactory solution. As someone with a dedication to maintaining the best possible connection to something approximating what actually happened in the past, some things shouldn't be up for debate. Where the line goes is a worry, certainly, but that fact alone doesn't mean there shouldn't be a line.

Besides that, Facebook and Twitter are in this situation because they decided to stop being a people connectors and became media companies. Trying to withdraw back to being people connectors whole keeping their gains from becoming content servers now that the implications of the shift are becoming apparent is disingenuous. Facebook was very straightforward about wanting to be where people got their news. Well, we wouldn't tolerate CBS letting Holocaust deniers have an hour in prime time, even if said deniers did spend a fortune to get it. Why should Facebook get a pass?

I take the article's point about the necessity of connection to these services going forward, but maybe that's a sign that Facebook should go back to being a connector of people instead of a server of content. If nothing else, people sure seemed to like it better back then.

Twitter should be obliterated from the face of the Earth, though. It does nothing but make our lives worse, both intellectually and spiritually.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 15:42

Besides that, Facebook and Twitter are in this situation because they decided to stop being a people connectors and became media companies. Trying to withdraw back to being people connectors whole keeping their gains from becoming content servers now that the implications of the shift are becoming apparent is disingenuous. Facebook was very straightforward about wanting to be where people got their news. Well, we wouldn't tolerate CBS letting Holocaust deniers have an hour in prime time, even if said deniers did spend a fortune to get it. Why should Facebook get a pass?
I find this line of argumentation horrifying. This whole idea that regulation is in play if you just host "content" is ... I dunno yikes. The model to me is here's a thing, here's how it works - I can't hide that in broad strokes, but knowing that use it or don't. I hate twitter but it isn't my call if people want it. I hate tribalism, but it isn't my call how that's allowed to manifest. I don't care if public debate tends to solidify views, what you want is for people to know the arguments being presented. I don't care about converting nazis.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 25938
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by thoreau » 13 Aug 2018, 16:05

Who said Shem was calling for coercive regulation? If CBS gave holocaust deniers an hour of prime time, businesses would pull ads so fast that there would be sonic booms.

Ads haven't been pulled from Facebook because it's not a platform where the connection between content and ads is as obvious. You turn on the evening news and an ad runs in the middle of the news show because that's what you turned on, and the ad is either seen nationwide or else in specific media markets, but everyone sees it.

Most people aren't seeing the holocaust denial content, it isn't clear to the viewer (don't know what terms and conditions the advertisers see regarding targeting) whether advertisers know what their ads are running alongside, so the market correction is going to be slower.

(And, in case it isn't clear, none of what I wrote is offered as an argument for coercive regulation.)
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
--Shem

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22273
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2018, 16:09

Most of the news coverage I've seen discussing Jones' ban from Facebook and the like simply says he was booted off for promoting conspiracy theories -- as though he were merely sharing relatively harmless tales of chemtrails, fluoridated water supplies and the various evils thereby. But no: the man was spreading outright lies which caused great harm to ordinary innocent people who'd already suffered something monstrous -- their first-grade kids murdered at school -- and then Jones told his rabidly insane followers that those parents were not grieving victims but callous conspirators working to help the UN destroy America or whatever. One of the Sandy Hook families has had to move seven times since the murders, because Jones fans keep showing up at their homes to deliver death threats. Personally, I see no ominous free speech precedents being set in Facebook deciding to cease providing platforms for such garbage, anymore than I am worried about the libel and slander exemptions to the first amendment.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7080
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 16:34

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 15:42
I find this line of argumentation horrifying. This whole idea that regulation is in play if you just host "content" is ... I dunno yikes.
Is regulation what keeps CBS from giving time to Holocaust deniers? If not, why would you automatically assume regulation would be required in this case?

We imbue content providers in this country/society/era with a certain type of moral authority, which leads to certain responsibilities. The implications of that might give you the heebie jeebies, but it doesn't make it any less true. It's why CBS doesn't have Andy and Jenny's Indigo Cavalcade of Pseudoscience on prime time Saturday, even though they could arguably make more selling the time than they could from advertisers. That moral authority is why Facebook and Twitter and the like pose such a deep and continuing problem for truth and falsehood. Because to most people in the larger society, being pushed by a content provider carries the assumption of trust. Nobody cared when Crazy Eddie stood on a soapbox and ranted about the Jews in the park, because Crazy Eddie didn't derive any moral authority from standing on his box in the park. Put him on Facebook though, and stick him next to Senators, business leaders, ministers, and all kinds of other "authorities," and suddenly he seems, at first blush, to warrant the same attention as those other people. Which allows bullshit like Holocaust denial, and anti-vaccination, and a million other movements to flourish, when, in a past era, people wouldn't have even bothered with them.

And Facebook has nothing, does nothing, to discourage it. Zuckerberg wants to be treated as if he's as important to the flow of information as Verizon or AT&T, even though his company curates it every bit as much as Disney or Comcast. He can't have it both ways, and nobody should let him believe otherwise.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 16:35

I think it's fine for FB to have whatever policy they want. I certainly don't think conspiracies and awful stuff on social platforms are the government's business (which has been a threat if Facebook "doesn't fix it" whatever that means).

But ... I also think it is a mistake for people to persistently advocate for de-platforming of unpopular views even horrifying views. It is better for those views to exist in the space of "Things Some People Believe and Say". And I think Jones is a real test to my principle here - woo I hate that guy and everything he stands for.

I think I posed this question here previously, but maybe not - Is it okay for FB to have a model that just says "look our thing is to provide a vehicle for shareable content people like - don't care if its real, don't care if it's awful, come talk to us when it rises to prosecutable stuff like threats"? My answer is yes that's totally fine as a business model but I feel like a lot of people think otherwise.

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 16:36

We imbue content providers in this country/society/era with a certain type of moral authority, which leads to certain responsibilities.
This is nonsense to me in a modern media landscape.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22273
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2018, 16:38

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:35
But ... I also think it is a mistake for people to persistently advocate for de-platforming of unpopular views even horrifying views.
What about advocating for the de-platforming of slander and libel?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7080
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 16:46

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:35
I think I posed this question here previously, but maybe not - Is it okay for FB to have a model that just says "look our thing is to provide a vehicle for shareable content people like - don't care if its real, don't care if it's awful, come talk to us when it rises to prosecutable stuff like threats"? My answer is yes that's totally fine as a business model but I feel like a lot of people think otherwise.
If that's what Facebook wants to do, Facebook and I will have no problems. In fact, I'd prefer they did. I actually have a whole paragraph where I say as much in the post above that freaked you out. It is, however, fundamentally not what Facebook does, and has not been since they instituted the News Feed. Their algorithm chooses exactly what people see when they login to Facebook. And the second you choose winners and losers like that, you're not just a communications platform anymore.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 7080
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Shem » 13 Aug 2018, 16:47

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:36
We imbue content providers in this country/society/era with a certain type of moral authority, which leads to certain responsibilities.
This is nonsense to me in a modern media landscape.
Then why did Brian Williams lose his job?
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 8800
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by nicole » 13 Aug 2018, 16:57

Shem wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:34
Nobody cared when Crazy Eddie stood on a soapbox and ranted about the Jews in the park, because Crazy Eddie didn't derive any moral authority from standing on his box in the park. Put him on Facebook though, and stick him next to Senators, business leaders, ministers, and all kinds of other "authorities," and suddenly he seems, at first blush, to warrant the same attention as those other people.
I'm a little skeptical of this. But then I remember that the Facebook audience sent Chewbacca mom viral and the only real question is why Crazy Eddie wasn't also a respected member of the community.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 17:10

Shem wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:47
JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:36
We imbue content providers in this country/society/era with a certain type of moral authority, which leads to certain responsibilities.
This is nonsense to me in a modern media landscape.
Then why did Brian Williams lose his job?
It's weird to say anything you want to call content is just like Brian Williams. I'm not even sure Brian Williams should be Brian Williams but regardless of now his employer felt, I don't get the idea that ergo everyone should always feel like that no platform should exist where people who dig Brian Williams version of stories shouldn't be able to see them.

I'd rather the control be emergent. Choosing newsfeed roughly based on "stuff you might like and we don't monitor truth value" seems entirely cromulent to me.

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 22273
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by Jennifer » 13 Aug 2018, 17:15

JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 17:10
Shem wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:47
JasonL wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:36
We imbue content providers in this country/society/era with a certain type of moral authority, which leads to certain responsibilities.
This is nonsense to me in a modern media landscape.
Then why did Brian Williams lose his job?
It's weird to say anything you want to call content is just like Brian Williams. I'm not even sure Brian Williams should be Brian Williams but regardless of now his employer felt, I don't get the idea that ergo everyone should always feel like that no platform should exist where people who dig Brian Williams version of stories shouldn't be able to see them.
For what it's worth, people who dig Alex Jones' version of stories can still visit Infowars and see them.
I'd rather the control be emergent. Choosing newsfeed roughly based on "stuff you might like and we don't monitor truth value" seems entirely cromulent to me.
But if they're not monitoring "truth value," should they call themselves a news feed, and promote themselves as purveyors of news?

EDIT: typo
Last edited by Jennifer on 13 Aug 2018, 17:34, edited 1 time in total.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 22276
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Random Observations C.A (306 pages is enough)

Post by JasonL » 13 Aug 2018, 17:22

Ok if they kept the same system but called it Story Feed, is everyone happy?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests