Sing a Song of the Singularity

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Gold Pony Boy
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Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Gold Pony Boy » 27 Feb 2018, 23:26

To ooh and ahh at some of the crazy things technology lets us do now.

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Gold Pony Boy
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Gold Pony Boy » 27 Feb 2018, 23:29

But honestly, the reason I wanted to create this was to post about something that my sister Ellie reminded me of with a facebook post today.

What are your guys' opinions on these Deepfakes porn videos that have been in the news the last few months? The videos that use an AI program to put celebrity faces on the body of porn stars.

Morally, is it okay? Is there any legal ramification to these types of videos? And does this signal a potentially bigger problem for the future (better fakes of people in videos, created blackmail, etc.) ?

Sorry if this has been posted about already.

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Aresen
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Aresen » 27 Feb 2018, 23:34

The fake porn thing will happen, but it won't matter much.

More importantly, it will make all video 'evidence' suspect. By the time we get all the cops wearing body cams, the software will allow them to 'edit' it to represent 'what really happened.'
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Mo
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Mo » 27 Feb 2018, 23:38

When they are common they won't be a big deal because fingerprinting, signatures and validation will become the requirement for video evidence. Similar how people don't just buy any picture is real because of the ubiquity of photoshop. The transition between now and that future will be ugly.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Eric the .5b » 27 Feb 2018, 23:58

I haven't actually seen one! I first heard about it from a blog post I read at work, so I didn't want to go looking at the subreddit that was out there...but before I remembered to take a look, they'd pulled it.

Said blog post was this more SFW version where a guy put his wife's face on a few Anne Hathaway clips. The effect is fairly convincing, at least at those sizes.

That video would eventually become mutable is old news, though. Hell, Heinlein depicted a computer faking video (if only for a Max Headroom-esque persona) 51 years ago.

Whether it can be made undetectably mutable is an open question, though. We're seeing people trot out the first really impressive fakes, but there hasn't been much effort put into detecting such fakes. And now we've got machine learning as a tool to help detect the very fakes people are using that technique to make. Most importantly, this sort of thing lets you play with elements of a video—turn a horse into a zebra, swap faces, etc. It's not capable of changing a video of a cop unjustifiably beating the shit out of some guy into a video of a cop defending himself with appropriate force.

Mind you, we still have the issue of corroboration. Faking multiple videos from different angles and keeping them all consistent with each other is a much bigger challenge than manipulating a single video.

Also, we're going to see more effort into trying to make source imagery and video verifiable. That is, cameras signing, watermarking, checksumming, etc. the source images and video frames, in hopes of at least making it detectable when an image is altered.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Feb 2018, 00:02

Eric the .5b wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 23:58
Hell, Heinlein depicted a computer faking video (if only for a Max Headroom-esque persona) 27 years ago.
Before that, even. I know he did it 52 years ago, if you're talking about Mike aka Adam Selene from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Feb 2018, 00:06

lunchstealer wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 00:02
Eric the .5b wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 23:58
Hell, Heinlein depicted a computer faking video (if only for a Max Headroom-esque persona) 27 years ago.
Before that, even. I know he did it 52 years ago, if you're talking about Mike aka Adam Selene from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Fake news, bro. I've got the right number in the post. ;)

Modulo any off-by-one error.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Aresen » 28 Feb 2018, 00:17

We have already seen movies of almost-credible similacra of real people. The software is only going to get better.

Within a few years, it will be possible to produce 'movies' of Donald Trump banging Nancy Pelosi on his desk in the Oval Office that, absent the requirement for corroboration, could not be detected as fakes. (Do not try this at home. Or even in your imagination.)
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Warren » 28 Feb 2018, 02:56

Wake me when we get Stepford Wives.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Jadagul » 28 Feb 2018, 06:02

Warren wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 02:56
Wake me when we get Stepford Wives.
With breakfast in bed, right?

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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Warren » 28 Feb 2018, 10:22

Jadagul wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 06:02
Warren wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 02:56
Wake me when we get Stepford Wives.
With breakfast in bed, right?
Mai bien sur.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Jasper » 28 Feb 2018, 12:53

Aresen wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 00:17
We have already seen movies of almost-credible similacra of real people. The software is only going to get better.

Within a few years, it will be possible to produce 'movies' of Donald Trump banging Nancy Pelosi on his desk in the Oval Office that, absent the requirement for corroboration, could not be detected as fakes. (Do not try this at home. Or even in your imagination.)
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by dead_elvis » 28 Feb 2018, 16:56

Aresen wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 00:17
Within a few years, it will be possible to produce 'movies' of Donald Trump banging Nancy Pelosi on his desk in the Oval Office that, absent the requirement for corroboration, could not be detected as fakes.
There will always be those who can tell by the pixels.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Jennifer » 28 Feb 2018, 16:59

Is it at least theoretically possible for someone who is very talented (or skilled, regarding code/software/whatever) to alter a photo so that it's impossible for anyone to determine it's been altered? If not, why not?
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Feb 2018, 19:52

Jennifer wrote:
28 Feb 2018, 16:59
Is it at least theoretically possible for someone who is very talented (or skilled, regarding code/software/whatever) to alter a photo so that it's impossible for anyone to determine it's been altered? If not, why not?
It's totally theoretically possible to do. But there are a lot of theoretically possible things that can be utterly impractical to do, particularly if you work to make them impractical.

Right now, even a lot of the best, big-budget movie CGI often looks fake in various ways, because it's just damn hard to make things completely convincing to eyes and visual cortexes that evolved over millions of years to recognize incredible detail from subtle patterns of light and texture. And the higher-res and clearer video is, the harder it is to accomplish that. For video, the more frames per second, the more frames you have to fake. That's the big factor in why darkness, rain, shaky-cam, and grainy, low-res surveillance-footage filters are so popular in mid-budget (and even some high-budget) movies with CGI. Meanwhile, cameras keep getting better; how long before we're all packing cameras that take videos at 64K and 240 fps?

Also, you have a finite time to make a fake before you release it; after that, other people have all the time in the world to find the flaws in your effort. And there will be more flaws the quicker you make the fake.

And again, that's all before actually working to try to make source footage from cameras secure/verifiable. If it takes your phone streaming checksums of every photo or frame of video to multiple secure services as you take them, people will end up doing that. If it takes including the original, unaltered version of a photo (ie, without cropping, contrast and brightness fixes, etc. and with full location, camera settings, the camera's cryptographic signature, etc.) with every image that shows up on a news site to accomplish credibility, people will do that. We will get apps for that. Like all security, no measure is perfect, but they help keep fraud from being rampant.

ETA: Or, to sum it up a different way, we've never been able to absolutely rely on images and video—ask Stalin's ex-buddies about their snapshots with him or go look at a zillion ufo hoax videos on YouTube. We just have degrees of confidence in the truth of images and video and in the ability to detect fakery of both. Those degrees of confidence may shift, but people will work to keep them usefully high.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Kwix » 28 Feb 2018, 20:08

Gold Pony Boy wrote:
27 Feb 2018, 23:29
Morally, is it okay? Is there any legal ramification to these types of videos? And does this signal a potentially bigger problem for the future (better fakes of people in videos, created blackmail, etc.) ?
Honestly, I don't know. If it's obviously a fake does it count as a derivative work? I clearly doesn't dilute the brand that is Natalie Portman or Ving Rhames. Once they become better though, I dunno. Will society quit giving a crap about which celebrity another is banging?
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Feb 2018, 20:19

Morally/ethically, it's just like any other form of representative art. If you try to fool people with a manipulation, then you've, you know, lied and possibly attempted fraud. Overall, I'm not sure it really brings any new questions that photos and paintings haven't already posed. You get more complicated issues from lack of context, like the photo General Nguyen Ngoc Loan Executing a Viet Cong Prisoner in Saigon.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 01 Mar 2018, 01:26

Regarding celebrities, assuming their celebrity has any monetary value, they have a "right to publicity" or some such, the idea being that they can seek civil remedies for whatever that may be worth. The ability to fake photos and the ability to spot fakes is like the arms race. One side gets ahead for a while, then the other side catches up. As a general rule, for example, you have a much easier time getting Polaroid photos admitted as evidence in a court because they're inherently more difficult for the average person to fake.

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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Warren » 01 Mar 2018, 01:30

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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Eric the .5b » 01 Mar 2018, 23:15

So, who's ready for the debate over Car Control laws banning manual driving? Especially after a decade or two more of mass murders by driving into crowds?

I was looking at some gun control ranting elsewhere and realized that people are going to talk in exactly these terms about manually-driven vehicles. "Why do you need a right to a car you can run over people with?"
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Ellie » 01 Mar 2018, 23:22

If that's the price to pay for self-driving cars, I might turn in my decoder ring. Heh.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Jennifer » 01 Mar 2018, 23:55

Eric the .5b wrote:
01 Mar 2018, 23:15
So, who's ready for the debate over Car Control laws banning manual driving? Especially after a decade or two more of mass murders by driving into crowds?
I've thought bout this before -- not the mass-murder thing, but "when will manually driven cars become illegal," and it's possible that they by the time they officially become "illegal" they will already have become "impractical" in most ways. Like using a horse instead of a car for your primary transportation: not illegal, but effectively impossible. My apartment complex -- like every place I've ever lived -- has plenty of car parking, but no options for stabling animals. Perhaps 100 years from now, someone will instead say "plenty of spaces to park self-driving cars, none for a car you must drive yourself [because there's no room to open the door to let yourself in and out]."
Last edited by Jennifer on 02 Mar 2018, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Warren » 01 Mar 2018, 23:57

I would absolutely support a ban on human drivers on the public roads.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Jennifer » 02 Mar 2018, 00:04

I already edited my previous comment once to fix a type, so I won't edit again to change the actual meaning. But -- when I speculated about changes "100 years" from now -- scratch that, I expect it'll be MUCH sooner than that. Maybe/likely soon enough that I personally will live to see it be commonplace.
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Re: Sing a Song of the Singularity

Post by Highway » 02 Mar 2018, 00:13

I really think the "Oh I'll NEVER trust a self-driving car! I want to drive myself!" people will dwindle in number pretty darn fast when level 4 AV's are out. And it's not even worth saying "out and proven" because they'll have been proven before they'll be out, because people won't accept it the other way. So because there will be so few downsides to them, I think they'll get adopted really quickly. What will be the question is how fast do they push out the old stock of cars people already own. They may be too expensive for most people to replace their vehicle soon. But I think the desire will be to replace them as quickly as possible, society-wide. So we'll see more vehicle sharing, single vehicle households, and ride-hailing services replacing private car ownership. There will be some people who always want to own their own cars. And I think there will always be some people who drive their own cars, if they can afford to (I don't think insurance will go up that much, because people who would drive the cost up will quickly be uninsurable).

I think they'll be way too expensive to mandate soon, tho. And I know a lot of you guys like guns, but the general utility / risk ratio comparing guns and automobiles is wholly incomparable.
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