Maximum feels about the minimum wage

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Ellie
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Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Ellie » 07 Jan 2018, 10:51

Do we have a minimum-wage-specific thread? I couldn't find it.

Anyway:

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Warren
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Warren » 07 Jan 2018, 10:57

I hope somebody tweeted back "Yes, I'm sure they'll feel much better about themselves now that they aren't paying them anything at all".
This idea that every job should pay enough to support a family of four (and now apparently at middle class living standards) is giving me ulcers. HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?
Last edited by Warren on 07 Jan 2018, 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Aresen » 07 Jan 2018, 10:58

I want her to demonstrate outside of every empty former 'mom and pop' store that has to close down and every McDonald's order kiosk that replaces a counter worker.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by nicole » 07 Jan 2018, 13:51

Yeah I’ve seen that tweet a bunch and I’m basically unfollowing anyone who RTs it because it’s just too insanely stupid.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JasonL » 07 Jan 2018, 14:13

You couldn’t more clearly say “I don’t understand anything about anything never ever listen to words coming from my face” if you were committed to that message for 10 years. That message normally leaks out here and there with things like cliche mitigating the full depths of your apparent stupidity. Good job lady.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jan 2018, 14:17

Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 10:57
This idea that every job should pay enough to support a family of four (and now apparently at middle class living standards) is giving me ulcers. HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?
To be fair, the more reasonable versions of the complaint I've heard is that evermore jobs don't even pay enough to support ONE person.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Warren » 07 Jan 2018, 14:22

Jennifer wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:17
Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 10:57
This idea that every job should pay enough to support a family of four (and now apparently at middle class living standards) is giving me ulcers. HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?
To be fair, the more reasonable versions of the complaint I've heard is that evermore jobs don't even pay enough to support ONE person.
Which is less infuriating but equally stupid.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jan 2018, 14:30

Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:22
Jennifer wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:17
Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 10:57
This idea that every job should pay enough to support a family of four (and now apparently at middle class living standards) is giving me ulcers. HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO ANYONE?
To be fair, the more reasonable versions of the complaint I've heard is that evermore jobs don't even pay enough to support ONE person.
Which is less infuriating but equally stupid.
Or a genuine socioeconomic problem in need of fixing, depending on one's point of view.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Warren » 07 Jan 2018, 14:52

no
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jan 2018, 15:00

Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:52
no
Ah, well, we disagree then. To summarize something I've said before: if the number/percentage of "can't possibly support anybody on that" jobs were small and shrinking (and especially if that number/percent closely coincided with 'number/percent of American workers of an age where statistically, they're probably still living with their parents') then I'd agree: the prevalence of these low-wage jobs isn't a problem, and any grown-ass adult trying and failing to support himself on such a job deserves scorn rather than not sympathy. But such jobs are common enough (relative to better-paying ones) now that I'd say "All those people trying to live off jobs that plain don't pay enough are NOT individual fuckups in an otherwise-fine society, but indicators of a greater social/economic problem."
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Aresen » 07 Jan 2018, 20:16

Jennifer wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 15:00
Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:52
no
Ah, well, we disagree then. To summarize something I've said before: if the number/percentage of "can't possibly support anybody on that" jobs were small and shrinking (and especially if that number/percent closely coincided with 'number/percent of American workers of an age where statistically, they're probably still living with their parents') then I'd agree: the prevalence of these low-wage jobs isn't a problem, and any grown-ass adult trying and failing to support himself on such a job deserves scorn rather than not sympathy. But such jobs are common enough (relative to better-paying ones) now that I'd say "All those people trying to live off jobs that plain don't pay enough are NOT individual fuckups in an otherwise-fine society, but indicators of a greater social/economic problem."
And why do you think minimum wage laws are going to relieve that problem?
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by thoreau » 07 Jan 2018, 20:25

There is nothing--NOTHING!--more pointless than another grylliade discussion of who deserves sympathy for their economic woes. We'd be better off discussing the punctuation on the paperwork at an abortion clinic, and how to interpret the part that was smudged because some mayo dripped onto the form.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Jennifer » 07 Jan 2018, 21:21

Aresen wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 20:16
Jennifer wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 15:00
Warren wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 14:52
no
Ah, well, we disagree then. To summarize something I've said before: if the number/percentage of "can't possibly support anybody on that" jobs were small and shrinking (and especially if that number/percent closely coincided with 'number/percent of American workers of an age where statistically, they're probably still living with their parents') then I'd agree: the prevalence of these low-wage jobs isn't a problem, and any grown-ass adult trying and failing to support himself on such a job deserves scorn rather than not sympathy. But such jobs are common enough (relative to better-paying ones) now that I'd say "All those people trying to live off jobs that plain don't pay enough are NOT individual fuckups in an otherwise-fine society, but indicators of a greater social/economic problem."
And why do you think minimum wage laws are going to relieve that problem?
Personally, I don't. But even when I disagree with people it's good to accurately understand where they're coming from, and despite Warren's claims the bulk of them are not arguing that any job should pay enough to provide a middle-class life for a family of four.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Aresen » 07 Jan 2018, 21:35

Fair enough.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Pham Nuwen » 08 Jan 2018, 00:59

I'm not terribly worried about it. There's a movement going on, good and bad, that's happening and I just hope we're going more German* than French with it is all.

*my reasoning being probably spurious but eh *shrugs*
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JasonL » 08 Jan 2018, 10:11

My primary complaint about the way wages are discussed is that deserve has nothing to do with anything and the related but also strange idea that any arbitrary activity should pay at least blah blah so long as you do this thing 40 hours a week. It's a nonsense argument that avoids, you know, the whole reason jobs do or don't exist in the first place. Some activities just aren't valuable. Some have been declining in value. Some have never had that much value. It is not a moral judgement, it is - all due acknowledgements to an imperfect market - overwhelmingly a function of supply of people and tech that can do that thing vs demand for that thing. If lots of people can do it or it can be easily replaced with technology, that activity will not pay much the end.

I care about this framing because the question we should all be caring about is what are the activities that do have value that don't require degrees, where are those things in demand, and how can we get more people to retrain/relocate to do them. And, here's the thing, these jobs exist, in large numbers. You start off at lower level pay, you train, get certifications, etc and you go up. Healthcare techs, nursing, home care, elder assistance, plumbing, electrician, hvac, industrial/automotive/aero mechanics, web developer, paralegal, administrative assistant medical and corporate, and so on.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by pistoffnick » 08 Jan 2018, 11:44

I tell young people (who don't know what they want to do) to get a welding degree. Even though robotic welders exist, they are very limited in the welds they can make. Good welders are in demand. A certificate can be had for anywhere from 12 weeks to less than 1 year of school. Starting pay is about $12/hr and rapidly increases if you show up for work when you're supposed to, even faster if you specialize (underwater, heights, marine). Pretty good bang for the buck. And you'll always have that skill to fall back on if you decide to pursue something else later on.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JD » 08 Jan 2018, 12:17

Twitterface McDumbass there honestly seems to think that everyone who is paying workers $12/hr or whatever is just rolling around in a big pile of money thanks to their exploitation of the proletariat. What she misses is that some jobs just don't add that much value. If your job adds $15/hr of value to the business, you'll get paid maybe $13. If the law insists that you be paid $17/hr instead, you will not have a job because the business literally cannot afford to keep you.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by the innominate one » 08 Jan 2018, 12:23

Or the business might increase what it charges to cover the increased costs.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by tr0g » 08 Jan 2018, 12:38

Didn't Seattle pass a $15 minimum wage and aren't the results coming back that yes, Virginia, it did decrease employment? I thought I saw that, but I'm too lazy to google right now.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JD » 08 Jan 2018, 12:41

the innominate one wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 12:23
Or the business might increase what it charges to cover the increased costs.
Assuming price elasticity of demand is not a thing, yes. For a lot of small businesses it's a very real thing. The government can order them to pay another 15% in labor costs or whatever, but the businesses can't just order their customers to fork over more money.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JasonL » 08 Jan 2018, 13:00

tr0g wrote:Didn't Seattle pass a $15 minimum wage and aren't the results coming back that yes, Virginia, it did decrease employment? I thought I saw that, but I'm too lazy to google right now.
It’s complicated and results hard to parse amid noise of screaming hot economy. Wages just above minimum were already climbing. There have been modest gains to some workers, but many have reduced hours and low wage unemployment appears to be a bit worse. The thing is what does this look like in a down economy. Is it more help or exacerbated harm. Theory suggests the latter but it’s complicated.

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by the innominate one » 08 Jan 2018, 13:13

JD wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 12:41
the innominate one wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 12:23
Or the business might increase what it charges to cover the increased costs.
Assuming price elasticity of demand is not a thing, yes. For a lot of small businesses it's a very real thing. The government can order them to pay another 15% in labor costs or whatever, but the businesses can't just order their customers to fork over more money.
Absolutely. It's just not always as clear cut as your statement I was replying to. I know it's impossible to cover all conditions and caveats.
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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by Ellie » 10 Jan 2018, 20:13

siiiiiiiiiiiigh

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Re: Maximum feels about the minimum wage

Post by JasonL » 10 Jan 2018, 21:49

May you live in the world you hope for you stupid fuck.

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