No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24779
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by thoreau » 10 Dec 2017, 17:17

Generally the first allegation is followed pretty quickly by a bunch more. Not with Keillor. Reporters haven't even been able to pry out details of the original allegation.

There's got to be more to this story. Either Keillor did something worse/more than he claims or his accuser is up to no good. And since he is protesting his innocence I don't think this will just go down the memory hole.

One way or the other, I hope that there is a clean answer, not an ambiguous case with enough contested and undecidable details that partisans from both flanks of the culture war can retreat to their own bubbles of epistemic closure and regard him as (circle one: a part of the rape culture/a victim of the SJWs).
"Camacho would be better than Trump. He actually has goodwill towards the world, and he actually did seek out the assistance of the smartest man in the world."
--Fin Fang Foom

User avatar
Dangerman
Posts: 5727
Joined: 07 May 2010, 12:26
Location: Happy Katanakaa Everyone!

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Dangerman » 11 Dec 2017, 15:20

There's a line between 'I can explain why you shouldn't' and 'creepy/gross' that turns into a motte and bailey. I can tell a friend, 'don't touch people you just met, even if it's in a friendly way, it's about personal space'. I can't seem to get people to define 'creepy' beyond "I don't like that".

User avatar
pistoffnick
Posts: 2696
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:52
Location: Right behind you. Watching.

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by pistoffnick » 11 Dec 2017, 17:54

Chef Mario Batali
Always be suspicious of people who have, or crave, power. - Stanley Kubrick
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 14794
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by lunchstealer » 11 Dec 2017, 17:54

Dangerman wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 15:20
There's a line between 'I can explain why you shouldn't' and 'creepy/gross' that turns into a motte and bailey. I can tell a friend, 'don't touch people you just met, even if it's in a friendly way, it's about personal space'. I can't seem to get people to define 'creepy' beyond "I don't like that".
And more importantly, "I don't like that from you." That's where the subjective standard is pretty gnarly. I'm fairly certain that there are 1000 behaviors and innuendo jokes that Stevo would get an, "Oh, you, you're so naughty," where if I were lucky I'd get a "Dude. Really. Ew. Stop it."
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"Repeated headdesk is dangerous yo." - JasonL

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 9078
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 11 Dec 2017, 18:18

Man, Ryan Lizza's getting fired so hard I gotta wonder what he did.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
Highway
Posts: 12369
Joined: 12 May 2011, 00:22
Location: the Electric Ocean

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Highway » 11 Dec 2017, 18:23

lunchstealer wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 17:54
Dangerman wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 15:20
There's a line between 'I can explain why you shouldn't' and 'creepy/gross' that turns into a motte and bailey. I can tell a friend, 'don't touch people you just met, even if it's in a friendly way, it's about personal space'. I can't seem to get people to define 'creepy' beyond "I don't like that".
And more importantly, "I don't like that from you." That's where the subjective standard is pretty gnarly. I'm fairly certain that there are 1000 behaviors and innuendo jokes that Stevo would get an, "Oh, you, you're so naughty," where if I were lucky I'd get a "Dude. Really. Ew. Stop it."
I think a lot of the point is that most guys don't *ever* do those things. Yeah, there's a gray line with subjective standards when you're at the border, but I think a lot of the point is that there's this huge DMZ near the border. Don't go near the actual line. And yeah, maybe with things you say it has a lot to do with charisma. I know I don't have much charisma, certainly not as much as some of my friends. And yeah, I'm more awkward than they are. But I also don't push it. And I doubt lunchstealer pushes it. Those 1000 things, you don't do them, because you know that you'd make people uncomfortable. But if a guy 'doesn't know' that, but keeps doing them, then someone should tell him, because he obviously can't read the signs (or he can, and he actually acts that way because he can 'get away with it'). "That {thing you just did} right there? Don't do that; you can't pull it off and it makes you a creep." "Oh, I can't tell my friend he's being a creep, that's mean." Well, who is going to? Someone who shouldn't have to? Someone else who's in a situation where they're a lot more scared of the consequences, or feels like they have to humor him?
"Sharks do not go around challenging people to games of chance like dojo breakers."

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 12120
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 11 Dec 2017, 18:24

In response to the line of discussion last articulated by Highway, lunchstealer and Dangerman:

I can't find it online, but this reminds me of the SNL sketch about proper office conduct where they were doing a Goofus and Gallant type comparison between Chris Parnell and some super handsome guest of the week. Polite requests to have lunch by Chris' nerdy character were deemed inappropriate and resulted in calls to HR. The super handsome guy acting identically or even squeezing a boob at one point received a radically different response.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6375
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jadagul » 11 Dec 2017, 18:28

In practice a lot of what "creepy" actually means is "does not accurately read the reactions of other people and respond appropriately." Sometimes the emphasis is on the last part, because the creepy person is a jerk. Sometimes the emphasis is on the first part, because the creepy person is clueless.

And sometimes the emphasis is really on the middle part, where no one likes the creepy person to begin with and therefore they never get positive reactions to anything.

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 14794
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by lunchstealer » 11 Dec 2017, 18:44

the innominate one wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:24
In response to the line of discussion last articulated by Highway, lunchstealer and Dangerman:

I can't find it online, but this reminds me of the SNL sketch about proper office conduct where they were doing a Goofus and Gallant type comparison between Chris Parnell and some super handsome guest of the week. Polite requests to have lunch by Chris' nerdy character were deemed inappropriate and resulted in calls to HR. The super handsome guy acting identically or even squeezing a boob at one point received a radically different response.
They just re-did that one with Keenan Thompson as the pervy old [don't recall but blue collar type in an otherwise white collar office] and one of the dignified white guys as the innocent-but-percieved-as-super-creepy HR director. I thought it was an interesting choice to do in the current #MeToo climate.
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"Repeated headdesk is dangerous yo." - JasonL

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 12811
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Kolohe » 11 Dec 2017, 19:49

He was the security guard.

They might have been making it an age thing, or as you allude to a class thing. (They definitely didn't make it a black / white thing)

I don't think it particularly worked and that's aside from their timing was off (as it was for most of that episode.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21673
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Mo » 11 Dec 2017, 20:13

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 14727
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by dhex » 11 Dec 2017, 21:18

I like the connection being made between hrc loss and all the male writers who got dinged for sexual harassment.
"I like you, but you are a film moron." - db

User avatar
dbcooper
Posts: 17919
Joined: 05 May 2010, 15:40

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by dbcooper » 11 Dec 2017, 21:28

dhex wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 21:18
I like the connection being made between hrc loss and all the male writers who got dinged for sexual harassment.
Yeah, that idiot who lasted 5 mins as NY Times editor. Gawd.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21673
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Mo » 11 Dec 2017, 22:01

Mrs. Mo and I were supposed to have lunch in one of Batali's restaurants in Westchester this coming Saturday with some friends. That has since changed.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 14727
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by dhex » 11 Dec 2017, 23:31

Well he always was a salami expert.
"I like you, but you are a film moron." - db

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 11229
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Dec 2017, 00:50

Jadagul wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:28
In practice a lot of what "creepy" actually means is "does not accurately read the reactions of other people and respond appropriately." Sometimes the emphasis is on the last part, because the creepy person is a jerk. Sometimes the emphasis is on the first part, because the creepy person is clueless.

And sometimes the emphasis is really on the middle part, where no one likes the creepy person to begin with and therefore they never get positive reactions to anything.
And sometimes it's just all the guys who think they're the suave motherfucker while they're not.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6375
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jadagul » 12 Dec 2017, 00:54

Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 00:50
Jadagul wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:28
In practice a lot of what "creepy" actually means is "does not accurately read the reactions of other people and respond appropriately." Sometimes the emphasis is on the last part, because the creepy person is a jerk. Sometimes the emphasis is on the first part, because the creepy person is clueless.

And sometimes the emphasis is really on the middle part, where no one likes the creepy person to begin with and therefore they never get positive reactions to anything.
And sometimes it's just all the guys who think they're the suave motherfucker while they're not.
I would say that falls under "clueless". They are bad enough at reading reactions that they think they are being suave when they are, in fact, not being suave.

Obviously it can be hard to tell which is actually happening, and often it's a mix (e.g. people who aren't very good at reading reactions because they don't care enough to pay attention).

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 11229
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Dec 2017, 00:58

Jadagul wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 00:54
Eric the .5b wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 00:50
Jadagul wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:28
In practice a lot of what "creepy" actually means is "does not accurately read the reactions of other people and respond appropriately." Sometimes the emphasis is on the last part, because the creepy person is a jerk. Sometimes the emphasis is on the first part, because the creepy person is clueless.

And sometimes the emphasis is really on the middle part, where no one likes the creepy person to begin with and therefore they never get positive reactions to anything.
And sometimes it's just all the guys who think they're the suave motherfucker while they're not.
I would say that falls under "clueless". They are bad enough at reading reactions that they think they are being suave when they are, in fact, not being suave.

Obviously it can be hard to tell which is actually happening, and often it's a mix (e.g. people who aren't very good at reading reactions because they don't care enough to pay attention).
Sure. It's just that I never actually see the scenario where someone acts perfectly fine and creeps someone out. I only ever see guys act like unsocialized idiots and then get surprised at the reaction.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6375
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Jadagul » 12 Dec 2017, 01:06

Sure, so both one and two involve the guy acting like an unsocialized idiot.

But the middle category definitely happens; a good example is "a homeless person trying to talk to most people under, like, any circumstances whatsoever." Almost anything they're going to do will be inappropriate/intrusive, because they're talking to someone who doesn't want to talk to homeless people.

User avatar
Eric the .5b
Posts: 11229
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 16:29

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Eric the .5b » 12 Dec 2017, 02:22

Jadagul wrote:
12 Dec 2017, 01:06
Sure, so both one and two involve the guy acting like an unsocialized idiot.

But the middle category definitely happens; a good example is "a homeless person trying to talk to most people under, like, any circumstances whatsoever." Almost anything they're going to do will be inappropriate/intrusive, because they're talking to someone who doesn't want to talk to homeless people.
Maybe HR departments are too tough on homeless people, then...
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9679
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by Sandy » 12 Dec 2017, 10:46

the innominate one wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:24
In response to the line of discussion last articulated by Highway, lunchstealer and Dangerman:

I can't find it online, but this reminds me of the SNL sketch about proper office conduct where they were doing a Goofus and Gallant type comparison between Chris Parnell and some super handsome guest of the week. Polite requests to have lunch by Chris' nerdy character were deemed inappropriate and resulted in calls to HR. The super handsome guy acting identically or even squeezing a boob at one point received a radically different response.
Well, there's this, which kind of illustrates the point:

Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
pistoffnick
Posts: 2696
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:52
Location: Right behind you. Watching.

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by pistoffnick » 12 Dec 2017, 11:09

the innominate one wrote:
11 Dec 2017, 18:24
I can't find it online, but this reminds me of the SNL sketch about proper office conduct where they were doing a Goofus and Gallant type comparison between Chris Parnell and some super handsome guest of the week. Polite requests to have lunch by Chris' nerdy character were deemed inappropriate and resulted in calls to HR. The super handsome guy acting identically or even squeezing a boob at one point received a radically different response.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/ ... 1966?snl=1
Always be suspicious of people who have, or crave, power. - Stanley Kubrick
"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 12120
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 12 Dec 2017, 11:16

Thanks, pistoffnick. That's it. And I was wrong, it wasn't Chris Parnell, it was Fred Armisten.

Sandy's video is similarly illustrative of the point.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 12120
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by the innominate one » 14 Dec 2017, 07:15

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 14727
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: No touching! - sexual impropriety thread

Post by dhex » 14 Dec 2017, 07:40

"I like you, but you are a film moron." - db

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests