Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24432
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 11:29

Caitlin Flanagan makes a strong case that if Harvey Weinstein and his ilk are to be exiled from respectable company then Bill Clinton must be too. Say what you will about the affair with Monica, but the accounts offered by Paula Jones, Kathleen Wiley, and Juanita Broderick are no less credible than many of the things said about numerous other powerful men in the past month.

It is quite telling that most people only allowed themselves to view everything about Clinton and sex through the lens of the Lewinsky scandal. Yes, she was a subordinate, and that fact should not be dismissed, but at least it could be balanced with the fact that Monica's the woman who said "Yes" rather than "No." Doesn't make it right, but does make it a lesser sin compared to the ones that people didn't want to talk about. Plenty of other women tried to say "No" to Clinton, and he was not receptive to that answer. But there was a Blue Team to support, and a Red Team to oppose. Plus, there was a bevy of people who wanted to continue their political careers (Gore, Hillary, etc.) so rallying around a charismatic President in a time of peace and prosperity seemed like the thing to do.

For the media, the Lewinsky affair offered a lot more juicy drama (some of it only rated PG-13) than a few disturbing stories of assault or attempted assault. And the Republicans were never interested in the women, just finding a story that they could get the media to latch onto.
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11754
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by the innominate one » 14 Nov 2017, 11:41

Bill Clinton should be forced to reckon with these claims. They are plausible and he should be held accountable for them. The country would be much better off if he had resigned when he was forced to confess to perjury, even though the questions on which he perjured himself were due to an investigation run wild.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11754
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by the innominate one » 14 Nov 2017, 11:43

The Clintons have been protected by the fact that the right has always been out to get them, by any means. Their political opponents should have taken a lesson from the boy who cried wolf.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24432
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 11:58

the innominate one wrote:The Clintons have been protected by the fact that the right has always been out to get them, by any means. Their political opponents should have taken a lesson from the boy who cried wolf.
With #MeToo providing a superb opportunity to drive Bill Clinton out of public life and maybe even slap him with a civil suit, the Clintons' enemies have decided that this is the time to investigate Uranium One.
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11754
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by the innominate one » 14 Nov 2017, 12:02

Yeah. They're not the brightest bulbs in the lighting department, are they?
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 13:03

Wasn't Joe Lieberman, VP candidate part of that reckoning? He was selected because of his anti-Clinton speech.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Kolohe
Posts: 12614
Joined: 06 May 2010, 10:51

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Kolohe » 14 Nov 2017, 14:09

Arguably, the reason why Hillary isn't President now is because there was finally a reckoning for Bill's behavior towards many women.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24432
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 14:31

Kolohe wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:09
Arguably, the reason why Hillary isn't President now is because there was finally a reckoning for Bill's behavior towards many women.
I would expect that backlash to come among women who either decide to stay home or back third-party candidates. I would not expect many women to pick Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump over Hillary Clinton if her excuses for Bill Clinton were too much for them.

Unless it was "Screw that hypocrite, I'm backing the open misogynist. At least he'll cut our taxes."

Is there exit polling to support any of this?
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21849
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 14:43

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:31
I would expect that backlash to come among women who either decide to stay home or back third-party candidates.
That is what he's saying. Hillary lost because she lost a big chunk of her base over her Tammy Wynette shtick.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 6605
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Shem » 14 Nov 2017, 14:50

Lewinsky was not simply a subordinate; she was an intern. A cask of office supplies has more power than an intern in that setting, especially with the most powerful man in the world. It was less potentially criminal than the other accusations, but no less immoral.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24432
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 14:53

Shem wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:50
Lewinsky was not simply a subordinate; she was an intern. A cask of office supplies has more power than an intern in that setting, especially with the most powerful man in the world. It was less potentially criminal than the other accusations, but no less immoral.
I agree, but the fact that she was an apparently enthusiastic participant made it easier for people to excuse him and still look at themselves in the mirror.
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
fyodor
Posts: 6793
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:18

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 14:59

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:31
Kolohe wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:09
Arguably, the reason why Hillary isn't President now is because there was finally a reckoning for Bill's behavior towards many women.
I would expect that backlash to come among women who either decide to stay home or back third-party candidates. I would not expect many women to pick Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump over Hillary Clinton if her excuses for Bill Clinton were too much for them.

Unless it was "Screw that hypocrite, I'm backing the open misogynist. At least he'll cut our taxes."

Is there exit polling to support any of this?
Didn't the Greens do better than they had since Nader? Maybe Johnson's vote to some degree too. You can't exit poll the folks who stay home.

On another note relating to the topic, anyone 'member the short-lived "one free grope" movement?
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 8933
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 14 Nov 2017, 15:12

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:53
Shem wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:50
Lewinsky was not simply a subordinate; she was an intern. A cask of office supplies has more power than an intern in that setting, especially with the most powerful man in the world. It was less potentially criminal than the other accusations, but no less immoral.
I agree, but the fact that she was an apparently enthusiastic participant made it easier for people to excuse him and still look at themselves in the mirror.
Interns don't have power, but when they are unpaid they also don't have much risk. And a 21-year old is way less problematic than a minor. Not good mind you, but not bad enough to be any of my business absent complaint from her.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21849
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 15:14

fyodor wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:59
anyone 'member the short-lived "one free grope" movement?
Never heard that phrasing. What year was it?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
fyodor
Posts: 6793
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:18

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 15:19

Warren wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:14
fyodor wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:59
anyone 'member the short-lived "one free grope" movement?
Never heard that phrasing. What year was it?
A Team Blue response to Willey, so circa '98 I guess.


ETA: One Free Grope Rule googles well.
Last edited by fyodor on 14 Nov 2017, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

User avatar
Shem
Posts: 6605
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 00:27

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Shem » 14 Nov 2017, 15:20

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:12
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:53
Shem wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:50
Lewinsky was not simply a subordinate; she was an intern. A cask of office supplies has more power than an intern in that setting, especially with the most powerful man in the world. It was less potentially criminal than the other accusations, but no less immoral.
I agree, but the fact that she was an apparently enthusiastic participant made it easier for people to excuse him and still look at themselves in the mirror.
Interns don't have power, but when they are unpaid they also don't have much risk.
Tell that to the people whose careers Harvey Weinstein ruined for crossing him.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

User avatar
Fin Fang Foom
Posts: 8933
Joined: 05 May 2010, 22:39

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 14 Nov 2017, 15:23

Shem wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:20
Fin Fang Foom wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:12
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:53
Shem wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:50
Lewinsky was not simply a subordinate; she was an intern. A cask of office supplies has more power than an intern in that setting, especially with the most powerful man in the world. It was less potentially criminal than the other accusations, but no less immoral.
I agree, but the fact that she was an apparently enthusiastic participant made it easier for people to excuse him and still look at themselves in the mirror.
Interns don't have power, but when they are unpaid they also don't have much risk.
Tell that to the people whose careers Harvey Weinstein ruined for crossing him.
What Weinstein did to women and what Clinton did to Lewinsky are not comparable.
Saudi Arabia is doing something potentially harmful to America? Oh, hell. Does that mean we're going to invade Iraq again? - Jennifer

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 16:22

Also, let's not underestimate the boy who cried wolf factor. Republicans mixed a bunch of credible claims (the women) with a bunch of crazy claims (the pile of murdered people). So what ends up happening is that a bunch of understandable mistakes on details (like the description of Clinton's package) end up being evidence that the credible accusations were made up.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
fyodor
Posts: 6793
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:18

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 16:35

Mo wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:22
Also, let's not underestimate the boy who cried wolf factor. Republicans mixed a bunch of credible claims (the women) with a bunch of crazy claims (the pile of murdered people). So what ends up happening is that a bunch of understandable mistakes on details (like the description of Clinton's package) end up being evidence that the credible accusations were made up.
I think that factor is barely worth mentioning in relation to Team loyalty.
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24432
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 16:39

Team loyalty doesn't apply to swing voters.
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 16:41

Bingo. There's a reason Clinton had high favorability in a strong economy and Trump has a low one. Vitriol from the opposition party is roughly equal.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Aresen
Posts: 13119
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 20:18
Location: Great White Pacific Northwest

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Aresen » 14 Nov 2017, 16:42

Mo wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:22
Also, let's not underestimate the boy who cried wolf factor. Republicans mixed a bunch of credible claims (the women) with a bunch of crazy claims (the pile of murdered people). So what ends up happening is that a bunch of understandable mistakes on details (like the description of Clinton's package) end up being evidence that the credible accusations were made up.
We're seeing similar crazy on the Blue side this time around. There are credible claims of inappropriate contact between Trump associates and Russians of dubious character being mixed in with the notion that the Russians stole the election from Clinton and gave it to Trump.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

Most people don't realize Stephen King downplayed the horror that is Maine. - Jennifer

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 16:45

Aresen wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:42
Mo wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:22
Also, let's not underestimate the boy who cried wolf factor. Republicans mixed a bunch of credible claims (the women) with a bunch of crazy claims (the pile of murdered people). So what ends up happening is that a bunch of understandable mistakes on details (like the description of Clinton's package) end up being evidence that the credible accusations were made up.
We're seeing similar crazy on the Blue side this time around. There are credible claims of inappropriate contact between Trump associates and Russians of dubious character being mixed in with the notion that the Russians stole the election from Clinton and gave it to Trump.
The treatment of Louise Mensch and her ilk on the left now compared to Ann Coulter's on the right in the 90s is a point in favor of the Blues. Ann Coulter didn't become a joke until the Bush administration.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
fyodor
Posts: 6793
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:18

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 16:50

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:39
Team loyalty doesn't apply to swing voters.
And that's why H Clinton lost while B Clinton is still a respected Blue. Any questions?
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21849
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 19:22

Mo wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 16:41
Bingo. There's a reason Clinton had high favorability in a strong economy and Trump has a low one. Vitriol from the opposition party is roughly equal.
I can't even.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests