Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

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tr0g
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by tr0g » 15 Nov 2017, 11:24

nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by nicole » 15 Nov 2017, 11:43

tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by tr0g » 15 Nov 2017, 11:50

nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
That's always been my biggest problem. My corporate career was billion+ dollar companies. Had a manager or director been caught fucking an intern in his office? Bye. My last company walked out a manager for sleeping with one of the HR drones. She was simply reassigned to another office, he was dejobbed.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 12:05

nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
It would have been weird for him to resign for that given that the Republicans were going on about perjury, not the impropriety of the relationship, except some rumblings about adultery. It also would have been odd for the GOP to do that given Clarence Thomas.

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 15 Nov 2017, 13:01

tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:50
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
That's always been my biggest problem. My corporate career was billion+ dollar companies. Had a manager or director been caught fucking an intern in his office? Bye. My last company walked out a manager for sleeping with one of the HR drones. She was simply reassigned to another office, he was dejobbed.
The abuse of power was the wrongest thing of the whole incident, but the whole conversation was about lying about blowjobs and adultery. Hell, I think more people talked about how Monica was too unattractive to be worth cheating for than talked about the abuse of power angle.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 15 Nov 2017, 13:03

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:05
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
It would have been weird for him to resign for that given that the Republicans were going on about perjury, not the impropriety of the relationship, except some rumblings about adultery. It also would have been odd for the GOP to do that given Clarence Thomas.
Clarence Thomas struck back and scored. The credibility of Anita Hill remains very much in question.

Bill got cut an absolutely astonishing amount of unearned slack. As mentioned, improprieties aside, at least Monica was an enthusiastic participant, but Paula Jones was on the record when he was voted in. And lets not forget "First Black President". Indeed.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by tr0g » 15 Nov 2017, 13:06

Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:01
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:50
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
That's always been my biggest problem. My corporate career was billion+ dollar companies. Had a manager or director been caught fucking an intern in his office? Bye. My last company walked out a manager for sleeping with one of the HR drones. She was simply reassigned to another office, he was dejobbed.
The abuse of power was the wrongest thing of the whole incident, but the whole conversation was about lying about blowjobs and adultery. Hell, I think more people talked about how Monica was too unattractive to be worth cheating for than talked about the abuse of power angle.
My father once commented that if he had been in a similar situation, of course he would have lied about it. Why? He wouldn't want people to think he was that goddamned stupid.
Yeah but how can you tell at a glance which junk a raccoon is packing? Also, gay raccoons? - Hugh Akston
Nothing you can say is as important as the existence of a functioning marketplace of ideas, go set yourself on fire. - JasonL

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 15 Nov 2017, 13:09

Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 15 Nov 2017, 13:10

tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:06
Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:01
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:50
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:43
tr0g wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24
nicole wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 09:48
Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
Was Yglesias even out of college when all that went down? How about somebody who was there and pushing the party line finally admitting it?
He's only a few years older than me, so extremely not out of college. He would have been 17 when Clinton was impeached. I'm also confused about the idea that we didn't talk about the intern/abuse of power aspect back in the 90s, because I remember hearing about it.
That's always been my biggest problem. My corporate career was billion+ dollar companies. Had a manager or director been caught fucking an intern in his office? Bye. My last company walked out a manager for sleeping with one of the HR drones. She was simply reassigned to another office, he was dejobbed.
The abuse of power was the wrongest thing of the whole incident, but the whole conversation was about lying about blowjobs and adultery. Hell, I think more people talked about how Monica was too unattractive to be worth cheating for than talked about the abuse of power angle.
My father once commented that if he had been in a similar situation, of course he would have lied about it. Why? He wouldn't want people to think he was that goddamned stupid.
Which is why impeachment over perjury for that was a political loser. OTOH, focusing on sexual harassment/abuse of power is much harder to empathize with.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 15 Nov 2017, 13:37

Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:09
Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
Right, but my point is that Team Blue is as willing to poo hoo and embellish their guy as Team Red is.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 14:42

Warren wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:37
Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:09
Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
Right, but my point is that Team Blue is as willing to poo hoo and embellish their guy as Team Red is.
Maybe, but 1994 was a thousand years ago.

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Jennifer » 15 Nov 2017, 14:48

I don't recall Team Blue ever going so far as, say, to defend a multiply accused child molester by comparing him favorably to Jesus' parents in the Bible, or arguing that his actions are no worse than stealing a lawnmower, or insisting that a Team Blue pedophile is still better than ANY Team Red candidate because Team Red is that inherently evil....
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 15 Nov 2017, 15:38

Warren wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:37
Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:09
Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
Right, but my point is that Team Blue is as willing to poo hoo and embellish their guy as Team Red is.
Vitter v. Spitzer, compare and contrast. Both happened in the same era and ended very differently.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 15 Nov 2017, 16:16

Mo wrote:
Warren wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:37
Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:09
Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
Right, but my point is that Team Blue is as willing to poo hoo and embellish their guy as Team Red is.
Vitter v. Spitzer, compare and contrast. Both happened in the same era and ended very differently.
Yep.

Republicans understand that there is only one goal: To elect the most conservative person that they can get. They will primary a guy who wavers and dump a guy who threatens their electoral prospects (witness the willingness to dump Moore if they can find a more electable replacement) but they will forgive any sin that doesn't imperil electoral prospects and doesn't involve voting the wrong way on legislation.

Democrats are much less focused and disciplined. They aren't principled but they are also not as good at hardball. If Ginsburg unexpectedly leaves the Court in February of 2020, Democrats will probably let Trump appoint someone analogous to Merrick Garland. Most will probably not vote for the confirmation but they won't stop the confirmation either.

Both parties are evil, but the Democrats are also stupid.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Jennifer » 15 Nov 2017, 16:25

thoreau wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 16:16
Mo wrote:
Warren wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:37
Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:09
Jones didn't sue until 94. Also, Jones was part of the general conservative craziness that was easy to dismiss precisely because her case had an OJ glove moment (the "distinguishing characteristic"). IIRC, "First black President" was from Toni Morrison, not anyone in the Clinton camp.
Right, but my point is that Team Blue is as willing to poo hoo and embellish their guy as Team Red is.
Vitter v. Spitzer, compare and contrast. Both happened in the same era and ended very differently.
Yep.

Republicans understand that there is only one goal: To elect the most conservative person that they can get. They will primary a guy who wavers and dump a guy who threatens their electoral prospects (witness the willingness to dump Moore if they can find a more electable replacement) but they will forgive any sin that doesn't imperil electoral prospects and doesn't involve voting the wrong way on legislation.
The GOP's hypocrisy doesn't even bother me as much as the way GOPers like Roy Moore make an entire political career out of Freudian-projecting their flaws onto scapegoat groups: Moore molests young girls, then loudly announces his opposition to gay people on the grounds that THEY are the ones preying on kids. Moore tried to rape a teenager, then rails against immigrants on the grounds that THEY are all a bunch of rapists. And of course before word of Moore's bad behavior got out, there was already the longstanding trope of the virulently homophobic legislator inevitably caught in some gay tryst. Any real of perceived flaws they have, they project onto Someone Else and then try using the law to punish Someone Else for their own behavior.

At least the Democrats aren't remotely as bad in that regard. Spitzer the whoremongering anti-prostitution crusader is probably the closest recent Democratic example to Moore-level hypocrisy, but the party responded by casting him out, not rallying around him and citing evermore psychotic excuses for why Spitzer's actions and hypocrisy about them were okay.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 16:43

The GOP is having to deal with problem that it's base is made up of awful people. Right now, the GOP Senate election group released internal polling that says Moore will get crushed, and if they believe that, they'll be happy if the problem just goes away.

That said, both parties seem to need truly draconian vetting procedures to get their support.

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 15 Nov 2017, 17:04

Image

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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 17:27

Now, Dems appear to be willing to throw Bill under the bus:


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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by dbcooper » 15 Nov 2017, 17:46

Computer, tell me about the Lolita Express*.

Are we going to hear more about Epstein's connections? There's a shitload of them.





*I can see Clinton as a raper, but not as a pedo.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 18:11

dbcooper wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 17:46
Computer, tell me about the Lolita Express*.

Are we going to hear more about Epstein's connections? There's a shitload of them.





*I can see Clinton as a raper, but not as a pedo.
Everyone could go to jail!

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by dbcooper » 15 Nov 2017, 18:40

That would be a great result for the america. Trump, Clinton, and a whole establishment generation gone in one fell swoop.
Slip inside a sleeping bag.

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 15 Nov 2017, 18:56

dbcooper wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 18:40
That would be a great result for the america. Trump, Clinton, and a whole establishment generation gone in one fell swoop.
Elizabeth Warren will rebuild the Republic!

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by the innominate one » 15 Nov 2017, 19:01

For all the valid criticisms one can make about Dems that we don't have time to cover right now, on average they behave in a more principled fashion than Republicans, even if their motivation isn't actually said principles.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 15 Nov 2017, 19:04

Democrats just lack the courage of their non-convictions.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Kolohe » 15 Nov 2017, 19:06

Mo wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 13:10
Which is why impeachment over perjury for that was a political loser. OTOH, focusing on sexual harassment/abuse of power is much harder to empathize with.
It's more likely than not that any convictions and/or impeachment of Trump admin peeps will be for lying, not for other illegal stuff

("It's not the crime, it's the coverup")
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