Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 19:26

fyodor wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:19
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 19:28

the innominate one wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:41
Bill Clinton should be forced to reckon with these claims.
Sure.

He won't. The Great Sexual Harassment Backlash Wave will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone of his stature in Team Blue.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 19:47

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:28
the innominate one wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:41
Bill Clinton should be forced to reckon with these claims.
Sure.

He won't. The Great Sexual Harassment Backlash Wave will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone of his stature in Team Blue.
I half agree. It will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone that key cultural segments aren't prepared to go after. But I'm not quite sure that it's just about Bill Clinton's own stature. How important is he these days? Harvey Weinstein was no slouch in funneling cash to Democrats and influencing the media, but they tossed him.

I think the bigger thing today is that Bill Clinton is the husband of Hillary Clinton, he was key in her ascent--arguably a hindrance at specific moments, but a net benefit overall, and Hillary Clinton is the wronged candidate who won more votes than the pussy-grabbing Russian usurper but still lost. A reckoning for Bill Clinton would mean a re-evaluation of her role in his political journey and his role in hers. It would mean a re-evaluation of some women found her unconvincing as a prospective champion for their advancement. Yes, yes, he's far from the only reason she lost, and arguably he isn't even the biggest reason, but he's on the list, and key cultural segments aren't prepared to go there.

(Also, Bill Clinton groped women who weren't major media figures.)

OTOH, I think that Blues could tolerate a high-profile Senator from their party getting caught up in the wave of harassment backlash. If anything, it would demonstrate how Principled And Pure they are, while also clearing the way for Younger And More Diverse Senators to step up.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 19:50

Team Blue really wanted to canonize Bill the way Team Red did with Ronnie.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 19:54

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:47
I half agree. It will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone that key cultural segments aren't prepared to go after. But I'm not quite sure that it's just about Bill Clinton's own stature. How important is he these days? Harvey Weinstein was no slouch in funneling cash to Democrats and influencing the media, but they tossed him.
How many national conventions did Harvey Weinstein step out on stage to absolutely thunderous oh please God could he be our nominee instead applause?

Sure, Hillary's stature gets pulled into this if Clinton faced any scrutiny or pressure, but she's just a failed nominee. Bill's a former two-term president who managed to get out of office before the economy crashed. A guy who raised funds isn't even in the same sport, much less league.

And any office-holders in Team Blue getting implicated costs them the sense of moral superiority they're enjoying as we find out more goodies about Reds like Moore. No way they'll let that happen.
Last edited by Eric the .5b on 14 Nov 2017, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by lunchstealer » 14 Nov 2017, 19:56

Kolohe wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:09
Arguably, the reason why Hillary isn't President now is because there was finally a reckoning for Bill's behavior towards many women.
Really? I guess any low-amplitude thing could be considered the reason, given how tight things were - anything that gives her a couple hundred thousand extra votes in key parts of the country puts her over the top, so Comey Surprise, Putin's Troll Army, and, presumably, the subset of women who'd give up their chance to have a woman in the oval just because she put up with philandering are all candidates for 'the reason' she lost, but it seems like it's more a case of a thousand things went wrong and stopping any one of them would've put her over the top.

I'm thinking that Bill might finally get a legit asterisk from feminists, now, especially if Hillary really does bow out of future contests with any real credibility.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 20:04

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:54
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:47
I half agree. It will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone that key cultural segments aren't prepared to go after. But I'm not quite sure that it's just about Bill Clinton's own stature. How important is he these days? Harvey Weinstein was no slouch in funneling cash to Democrats and influencing the media, but they tossed him.
How many national conventions did Harvey Weinstein step out on stage to absolutely thunderous oh please God could he be our nominee instead applause?

Sure, Hillary's stature gets pulled into this if Clinton faced any scrutiny or pressure, but she's just a failed nominee. Bill's a former two-term president who managed to get out of office before the economy crashed. A guy who raised funds isn't even in the same sport, much less league.

And any office-holders in Team Blue getting implicated costs them the sense of moral superiority they're enjoying as we find out more goodies about Reds like Moore. No way they'll let that happen.
True.

How many successful alumni has the Clinton White House spun off into high-profile careers? And of those, how many didn't have the last name "Clinton"? Nixon aides remained (lamentably) important for decades, including Cheney. Reagan staffers are still on the scene. H.W. won the presidency, even if only for one term. But who, besides Hillary, went on to much after the Clinton Administration?

Some day they might have to think about what they did when they got in bed with the Clintons, and what they gave up. It was often said in the Clinton years that the media gave way too much attention to Clinton's bullshit scandals. At the time I attributed it to narratives about the media being rattled by accusations of liberal bias, and I still think there's something there. But I also wonder if something about the Clintons always came across as "off" to people who spent a lot of time following them but weren't reliant on them.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 20:04

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:28
the innominate one wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:41
Bill Clinton should be forced to reckon with these claims.
Sure.

He won't. The Great Sexual Harassment Backlash Wave will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone of his stature in Team Blue.
There are at lest 2 or 3, "I believe Juanita Broaddick," articles from libs out in the past couple days.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 20:15

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:04
How many successful alumni has the Clinton White House spun off into high-profile careers? And of those, how many didn't have the last name "Clinton"? Nixon aides remained (lamentably) important for decades, including Cheney. Reagan staffers are still on the scene. H.W. won the presidency, even if only for one term. But who, besides Hillary, went on to much after the Clinton Administration?
Has Stephanopoulos lost his job? Has Reich gone away, yet?

More importantly, what does it matter?
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 20:19

Mo wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:04
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 19:28
the innominate one wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:41
Bill Clinton should be forced to reckon with these claims.
Sure.

He won't. The Great Sexual Harassment Backlash Wave will stop and roll back the moment it gets in danger of hitting anyone of his stature in Team Blue.
There are at lest 2 or 3, "I believe Juanita Broaddick," articles from libs out in the past couple days.
There always were those voices in the wilderness. I'll believe the Wave is crashing down on him, too, when I see Blue fans denouncing him or distraught about his legacy falling apart.

They're not even talking about him.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 20:27

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:15
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:04
How many successful alumni has the Clinton White House spun off into high-profile careers? And of those, how many didn't have the last name "Clinton"? Nixon aides remained (lamentably) important for decades, including Cheney. Reagan staffers are still on the scene. H.W. won the presidency, even if only for one term. But who, besides Hillary, went on to much after the Clinton Administration?
Has Stephanopoulos lost his job? Has Reich gone away, yet?

More importantly, what does it matter?
Seems like I've heard Panetta and Cuomo's names buzzing around as well.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 20:28

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:15
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:04
How many successful alumni has the Clinton White House spun off into high-profile careers? And of those, how many didn't have the last name "Clinton"? Nixon aides remained (lamentably) important for decades, including Cheney. Reagan staffers are still on the scene. H.W. won the presidency, even if only for one term. But who, besides Hillary, went on to much after the Clinton Administration?
Has Stephanopoulos lost his job? Has Reich gone away, yet?

More importantly, what does it matter?
Point granted about Stephanopoulos.

Riech sits somewhere in the ground between Bernie and Krugman. Does anyone care about what he says?

On some level it doesn't matter. On another level, it points to the weakness of the Blues as an institution. They did little to groom a generation of successors, so they defaulted to Hillary Clinton but nearly lost to an aging socialist who isn't even really a Blue. That's a sign of weakness.

If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Aresen » 14 Nov 2017, 20:35

The Blues tossed the Weiner. I'm guessing they'd toss even Saint Bernie* or Chuckie Schumer in an instant if either of them got accused of sexual harassment.

*Yes, I know Sanders is not technically a Democrat, but he's an idol to a large segment of the party.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 20:40

thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by dead_elvis » 14 Nov 2017, 20:56

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:40
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
Depends what you mean by "blues". Milquetoast centrist voters that mostly vote D but generally aren't paying too much attention? Sure. But progressives have never been comfortable with Clinton, either Bill or Hillary. Bill is pilloried as the moment Democrats sold their souls out to "neoliberalism".
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Aresen » 14 Nov 2017, 21:17

dead_elvis wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:40
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
Depends what you mean by "blues". Milquetoast centrist voters that mostly vote D but generally aren't paying too much attention? Sure. But progressives have never been comfortable with Clinton, either Bill or Hillary. Bill is pilloried as the moment Democrats sold their souls out to "neoliberalism".
Democrats have souls?
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by dead_elvis » 14 Nov 2017, 21:19

Warren wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:43
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:31
I would expect that backlash to come among women who either decide to stay home or back third-party candidates.
That is what he's saying. Hillary lost because she lost a big chunk of her base over her Tammy Wynette shtick.
When lefties were perplexed over the irrationally visceral hatred for Hilary I would point to her Stand by Your Man comments, in which she managed to insult fans of one of the most popular songs in one of the most popular pop styles, while misinterpreting the song in the process. Along with the "baking cookies" comment, she was so tone deaf from the get-go it boggles my mind how anyone thought she should stay in politics. The entire left collectively stuck that down their memory hole and then were shocked that people found her unlikeable.

But I don't think she lost feminist votes over it- I think feminists were disappointed, while still being very invested in her as a Powerful Woman.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by thoreau » 14 Nov 2017, 21:33

dead_elvis wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 21:19
Along with the "baking cookies" comment, she was so tone deaf from the get-go it boggles my mind how anyone thought she should stay in politics. The entire left collectively stuck that down their memory hole and then were shocked that people found her unlikeable.

But I don't think she lost feminist votes over it- I think feminists were disappointed, while still being very invested in her as a Powerful Woman.
Depends on what you mean by the word "feminist", of course, but, yes, I think you're largely right, at least as long as we stick to the more common usages of that term in the media.

But the "baking cookies" comment pissed off a huge cohort of working-class and even middle-class women. Let's unpack it again:
I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas
Um, the vast majority of stay-at-home mothers do a lot more than bake cookies and have teas. Maybe politicians' wives have household help and nannies, but most other stay-at-home mothers are busting their asses, especially while the kids are young.
but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession
She "decided" to work? Most people don't get to "decide" to work. It's usually done as a necessity. And while everybody of course wants a job that they'll enjoy, it's generally undertaken at least as much for survival as for fulfillment. She's treating work as a lifestyle choice alongside the life of a socialite on the political wives' circuit. For most people neither deep personal fulfillment nor tea party hostess are choices on offer, and they have to find the least unsatisfying way possible to meet needs. Or else they take care of kids and household duties because daycare would eat up a huge chunk of whatever they brought home.

My mother voted for Clinton in 2016--there was never any way that she would vote for Trump--but she sure as hell didn't enjoy it. She busted her ass working full-time while raising kids, and while she had a job that she enjoyed in many ways it was always work, it was always necessary, and choice and fulfillment were never what it was about.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 22:06

dead_elvis wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:40
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
Depends what you mean by "blues". Milquetoast centrist voters that mostly vote D but generally aren't paying too much attention? Sure. But progressives have never been comfortable with Clinton, either Bill or Hillary. Bill is pilloried as the moment Democrats sold their souls out to "neoliberalism".
*rolls eyes*

The Blues I watch fucking love Bill and have worked very hard at appreciating Hillary. Again, you don't get thunderous applause for walking out on stage at the convention when the people there are split between those who don't give a fuck or are uncomfortable with you. Yes, there are Bernie fans who hate Bill and Hillary (and mostly Hillary, for all the right-wing nature of the hate machine). That's not the bulk of Blues.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 22:12

I think a lot of the Blue resistance to hitting Bill is just the old cognitive dissonance thing. Aside from re-evaluating Hillary and Bill's role re Hillary yadda yadda, they'd just have to own up to giving Bill a pass back when. Nobody wants to be a hypocrite, much less own up to it. The less said about Bill, the better. (And for those too young back then, it's still owning up to the hypocrisy of one's own Team.)

I'll say this, though. If that gate ever does open, might just be a torrent that pours through it. Suddenly everyone will realize they hated Bill all along. But I think the psychology of the matter leans toward keeping the gate closed and out of sight, out of mind.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Mo » 14 Nov 2017, 22:50

Aresen wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:35
The Blues tossed the Weiner. I'm guessing they'd toss even Saint Bernie* or Chuckie Schumer in an instant if either of them got accused of sexual harassment.

*Yes, I know Sanders is not technically a Democrat, but he's an idol to a large segment of the party.
They also tossed Spitzer, while Vitter held on to his job.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by fyodor » 14 Nov 2017, 23:08

Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 22:06
dead_elvis wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:40
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
Depends what you mean by "blues". Milquetoast centrist voters that mostly vote D but generally aren't paying too much attention? Sure. But progressives have never been comfortable with Clinton, either Bill or Hillary. Bill is pilloried as the moment Democrats sold their souls out to "neoliberalism".
*rolls eyes*

The Blues I watch fucking love Bill and have worked very hard at appreciating Hillary. Again, you don't get thunderous applause for walking out on stage at the convention when the people there are split between those who don't give a fuck or are uncomfortable with you. Yes, there are Bernie fans who hate Bill and Hillary (and mostly Hillary, for all the right-wing nature of the hate machine). That's not the bulk of Blues.
Not to dispute the main gist of your post per se, but don't forget that applauding Bill thunderously at the convention was somewhat de rigueur under the circumstances. They wanted to win more than anything else, after all, and giving the TV audience the impression that Bill is of course a saint and all Blues and especially Hillary are too by extension was the cue at that particular time and place.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Eric the .5b » 14 Nov 2017, 23:10

fyodor wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 23:08
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 22:06
dead_elvis wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:40
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 20:28
If the Blues were less pathetic, maybe they'd ask themselves what Bill Clinton ever did for them.
And they won't.
Depends what you mean by "blues". Milquetoast centrist voters that mostly vote D but generally aren't paying too much attention? Sure. But progressives have never been comfortable with Clinton, either Bill or Hillary. Bill is pilloried as the moment Democrats sold their souls out to "neoliberalism".
*rolls eyes*

The Blues I watch fucking love Bill and have worked very hard at appreciating Hillary. Again, you don't get thunderous applause for walking out on stage at the convention when the people there are split between those who don't give a fuck or are uncomfortable with you. Yes, there are Bernie fans who hate Bill and Hillary (and mostly Hillary, for all the right-wing nature of the hate machine). That's not the bulk of Blues.
Not to dispute the main gist of your post per se, but don't forget that applauding Bill thunderously at the convention was somewhat de rigueur under the circumstances. They wanted to win more than anything else, after all, and giving the TV audience the impression that Bill is of course a saint and all Blues and especially Hillary are by extension was the cue at that particular time and place.
And Blues watching it ate it up. I encountered a lot of chatter about how they missed Bill Clinton, how terribly charismatic and natural he was, and how great a job he did as president.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by Warren » 14 Nov 2017, 23:18

Grading on a curve, he was at the top of the class.
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Re: Bill Clinton, #MeToo, Feminism, and 1998

Post by nicole » 15 Nov 2017, 09:48

Vox headline on a Matt Yglesias joint: Bill Clinton Should Have Resigned
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