Just the Tax

Post Reply
User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21855
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Just the Tax

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2017, 12:26

Funding the government is so taxing.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21855
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2017, 12:38

I think this needs more attention.
How America's Outdated Tax Code Fails Gig Economy Workers

The burden of income tax for income other than a W-2 withholding job is outrageous. There are many ways small business is deliberately penalized to the detriment of the economy as a whole. New opportunities to earn money without an employer, such as eBay and Etsy, offer massive potential for economic growth and personal well being, but are being perversely strangled by the tax code.

Here's a YouTuber talking about the problem
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/video/yout ... 26063.html
Last edited by Warren on 06 Sep 2017, 12:39, edited 1 time in total.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 21013
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Just the Tax

Post by JasonL » 06 Sep 2017, 12:39

My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21855
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2017, 12:54

JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 12:39
My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.
I'm interested in leveling the playing field for the self employed. It shouldn't be any harder to pay your tax because you don't have a job. I understand you want the tax payer to have greater awareness of the money being taken from him. The withholding and rebate system creates an illusion of government largess.

However, you're still leaving the W-2 system in place. An honest employee can confidently file his taxes with little concern that the government will charge him with a crime and confiscate his worldly goods. But that sword of Damocles pretty much hangs over everyone that honestly tries to pay taxes on income not paid by an employer. The tax code is for all intents and purposes indecipherable to non specialists. If the government decides to set its sites on a successful arts and crafter, there is really nothing they can do to escape utter ruin.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
dhex
Posts: 14535
Joined: 05 May 2010, 16:05
Location: 'murica

Re: Just the Tax

Post by dhex » 06 Sep 2017, 13:52

i think that oversells how difficult the situation is for the self-employed. this is not to say it's simple or easy, but if your intake is set up properly (including proper legal advice for your business structure), and you drop 400/year on a cpa, you're basically good.

once you expand to small business sizes and take people on as employees it gets a little more weird, to be sure.
"The sort of passion for the Constitution that in a juster world would require him to introduce himself to all his new neighbors every time he moved." - eric b sans rakim

User avatar
Sandy
Posts: 9411
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:03
Location: In the hearts of little children, clogging their arteries.

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Sandy » 06 Sep 2017, 14:41

dhex wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 13:52
i think that oversells how difficult the situation is for the self-employed. this is not to say it's simple or easy, but if your intake is set up properly (including proper legal advice for your business structure), and you drop 400/year on a cpa, you're basically good.

once you expand to small business sizes and take people on as employees it gets a little more weird, to be sure.
*a lot more weird
Hindu is the cricket of religions. You can observe it for years, you can have enthusiasts try to explain it to you, and it's still baffling. - Warren

User avatar
lunchstealer
Posts: 14606
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:25
Location: The Local Fluff in the Local Bubble

Re: Just the Tax

Post by lunchstealer » 06 Sep 2017, 15:04

JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 12:39
My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.
How does a progressive consumption tax work? Not the consumption tax part, but the progressive part? Still seems like it has to be means-tested. Is it done by a means-tested refund?
"The constitution is more of a BDSM agreement with a safe word." - Sandy

"Neoliberalism. Austerity. Booga booga!!!!" - JasonL

"Repeated headdesk is dangerous yo." - JasonL

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 7630
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Just the Tax

Post by nicole » 06 Sep 2017, 15:35

lunchstealer wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 15:04
JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 12:39
My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.
How does a progressive consumption tax work? Not the consumption tax part, but the progressive part? Still seems like it has to be means-tested. Is it done by a means-tested refund?
First $X spent not taxed, usually proposed to do this via refund.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Privilege is having large phones fit into the garments that society expects you to wear." -Dangerman

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 20444
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2017, 17:30

dhex wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 13:52
i think that oversells how difficult the situation is for the self-employed. this is not to say it's simple or easy, but if your intake is set up properly (including proper legal advice for your business structure), and you drop 400/year on a cpa, you're basically good.
I'd prefer a tax code simple enough that any self-employed adult of average-or-better intelligence and education can do her own taxes without having to hire a CPA. The idea that simply obeying the law should require assistance from specialized professionals doesn't sit well with me.
Last edited by Jennifer on 06 Sep 2017, 20:55, edited 2 times in total.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24445
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Just the Tax

Post by thoreau » 06 Sep 2017, 18:16

What is the difference between a consumption tax and a sales tax? Does it involve a TB test, so everyone has skin in the game?
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 20444
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2017, 18:20

nicole wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 15:35
lunchstealer wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 15:04
JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 12:39
My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.
How does a progressive consumption tax work? Not the consumption tax part, but the progressive part? Still seems like it has to be means-tested. Is it done by a means-tested refund?
First $X spent not taxed, usually proposed to do this via refund.
Who is responsible for keeping track of how much money is spent, though? Is it a matter of "I, the spender, must keep the receipt for every expenditure I make," or "the government must be informed EVERY time money changes hands," or what?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21855
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2017, 18:22

@thoreau *slight nod*
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 21013
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Just the Tax

Post by JasonL » 06 Sep 2017, 18:37

A VAT or sales tax at point of transaction is one form of consumption tax, which is why i drew that distinction. I don't want the tax to be transactional for several reasons. Instead, I'd go with an expenditure tax which is another flavor of consumption tax. Instead of taxing transactions at point of occurrence, you take a person's total earnings for the year, deduct all savings and investment, and call everything else consumption. There are definitional issues (personal residence is a common argument - consumption or investment?), but I don't think for the most part they are that hard. Now you have a top line consumption figure. Apply a generous-ish standard deduction that gets taxed at $0. Say $25,000. Then say you tax $25k-50k at 5%, then 50k-75k at 20%, then 75k-150k at 30%, etc. Whatever. You define the progressivity of the system by the exempt amount and the rates applied at each band of consumption. You could work a negative rate in there if you want to do tax credits.

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24445
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Just the Tax

Post by thoreau » 06 Sep 2017, 18:46

So, an income tax with deductions for savings and investment?
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
Jadagul
Posts: 6299
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 18:51

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Jadagul » 06 Sep 2017, 19:08

Yeah. It's a pretty common proposal, with most of the obvious advantages and disadvantages.

User avatar
Warren
Posts: 21855
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:03
Location: Goat Rope MO
Contact:

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Warren » 06 Sep 2017, 19:57

thoreau wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 18:46
So, an income tax with deductions for savings and investment?
Yeah fuck that noise. If you're not eliminating the need to account for all your income it's not any kind of improvement at all. In fact since you now must account for all your assets (or be taxed on them) you're doubling down on the 'account for your every thought and deed'.

I'll go as far as saying that is the absolute worst tax reform proposal I've heard this year.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Mo » 06 Sep 2017, 21:59

Are returns on investments and savings or inheritance considered "earnings"? Is a vacation home consumption or investment? What if I rent it out a few days a year?
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11829
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Just the Tax

Post by the innominate one » 06 Sep 2017, 22:06

thoreau wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 18:16
What is the difference between a consumption tax and a sales tax? Does it involve a TB test, so everyone has skin in the game?
Very, very good.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
thoreau
Posts: 24445
Joined: 06 May 2010, 12:56
Location: Back to the lab again

Re: Just the Tax

Post by thoreau » 06 Sep 2017, 22:14

Mo wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 21:59
Are returns on investments and savings or inheritance considered "earnings"? Is a vacation home consumption or investment? What if I rent it out a few days a year?
Or what if I rent a room in my house?
"The first rule of Grylliade club is 'Why are we talking about Grylliade club?'"
--Jake

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 21013
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Just the Tax

Post by JasonL » 06 Sep 2017, 23:05

In the most common proposals rates on investment income are zero. One way to think about it is to raise savings limits for basic retirement plans to infinity and eliminate the early withdrawal penalty. If you take the money out it's consumption at the time you use it. Homes and real estate for personal use are most often treated as consumption (payment on debt is an expense - so car payment, mortgage, etc are all consumption). Some people argue about this.

User avatar
Mo
Posts: 21098
Joined: 26 Apr 2010, 17:08

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Mo » 06 Sep 2017, 23:22

To call that a giveaway to the wealthy would be an understatement. Even with a high deductible, that will go from progressive to regressive right quick. Implementing that plan for a couple years is a sure-fire way to either lead to heads on pikes or punishing capital gains taxes.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

User avatar
Jennifer
Posts: 20444
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 14:03

Re: Just the Tax

Post by Jennifer » 06 Sep 2017, 23:38

JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 23:05
In the most common proposals rates on investment income are zero.
You mean in addition to your proposed "money invested is not taxed?" So -- no taxes on the earned money you spend buying stocks, and also no taxes on any profits you make off those stocks? No tax on the earned money you spend buying an apartment building, and also no tax on the rental income you collect thereby? Yet the [generally much poorer] people renting those apartments are taxed on their rental/consumption, beyond the standard deduction?
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

User avatar
the innominate one
Posts: 11829
Joined: 17 May 2011, 16:17
Location: hypertime continuum

Re: Just the Tax

Post by the innominate one » 07 Sep 2017, 00:13

Mo wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 23:22
To call that a giveaway to the wealthy would be an understatement. Even with a high deductible, that will go from progressive to regressive right quick. Implementing that plan for a couple years is a sure-fire way to either lead to heads on pikes or punishing capital gains taxes.
I vote for heads on pikes.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

User avatar
nicole
Posts: 7630
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 16:28

Re: Just the Tax

Post by nicole » 07 Sep 2017, 07:18

Jennifer wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 18:20
nicole wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 15:35
lunchstealer wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 15:04
JasonL wrote:
06 Sep 2017, 12:39
My preferred approach in summary is progressive consumption tax (not a VAT but a designation of earnings less savings as consumption and applying progressive rates to that) plus carbon tax. I'd like to roughly double the price of gas with no wiggle room over a five year period. I prefer a mode of payment that generally requires people to have receipt of at least 25% of their tax burden before surrendering it back.
How does a progressive consumption tax work? Not the consumption tax part, but the progressive part? Still seems like it has to be means-tested. Is it done by a means-tested refund?
First $X spent not taxed, usually proposed to do this via refund.
Who is responsible for keeping track of how much money is spent, though? Is it a matter of "I, the spender, must keep the receipt for every expenditure I make," or "the government must be informed EVERY time money changes hands," or what?
If it's built on a VAT (instead of what Jason describes), everyone just gets sent a check for the same amount of money (because you assume everyone consumes the full nontaxable amount).
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"Privilege is having large phones fit into the garments that society expects you to wear." -Dangerman

User avatar
JasonL
Posts: 21013
Joined: 05 May 2010, 17:22

Re: Just the Tax

Post by JasonL » 07 Sep 2017, 08:17

You can make the tiers of consumption very progressive because in general you aren't fucking up investment. As a result accumulated wealth may look very unequal but consumed wealth inequality can be leveled out under a very progressive tax. I wouldn't go as far as all that, but if you wanted to tax the millionth dollar of consumption at 50% that's a way better system than taxing income at rates we are used to. Here's Robert Frank's take - he's quite the leftish sort. http://www.slate.com/articles/business/ ... lity_.html

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests