Op-ediots

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Eric the .5b » 28 Mar 2019, 15:42

This is just painfully dumb, as I read it.

"Tons of other conservatives support statehood, but I'll only actually mention one silly-sounding argument as to why so that I can dismiss the entire phenomenon!"

"OMG, they speak a lot of Spanish, there!" (I guess we have to kick San Antonio out of the country?)

"Their government is corrupt and inefficient, which is totally unlike all government in America. ...What?"

I think the only sensible conservative reason offered, true or not, is that it would tank the Puerto Rican economy. (Noting that it's not clear that they want statehood isn't particularly conservative. That's the angle that gives any honest commentator pause.)
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Jasper
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Jasper » 28 Mar 2019, 15:51

Truly awful.

Someone should write the conservative case for PR statehood.
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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 28 Mar 2019, 16:01

I think the history of votes against is a non trivial part of conservative angst. There’s a vibe like PR is all about receiving checks while maintaining independence. It’s a very conservative take about national identity.

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thoreau
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by thoreau » 28 Mar 2019, 16:04

Eric the .5b wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 15:42
I think the only sensible conservative reason offered, true or not, is that it would tank the Puerto Rican economy. (Noting that it's not clear that they want statehood isn't particularly conservative. That's the angle that gives any honest commentator pause.)
Their GDP per capita is just slightly below Mississippi. Full integration into the US might have a painful adjustment period, but I suspect it would be feasible. But I'm not an expert on this, so it's almost certainly harder than I think.

If they got statehood, the US Virgin Islands should too, as they have a higher GDP per capita and could handle the transition at least as easily as PR.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 28 Mar 2019, 16:25

Jasper wrote:Truly awful.

Someone should write the conservative case for PR statehood.
Someone on NR did and that piece of crap was the response.
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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 28 Mar 2019, 16:27

JasonL wrote:I think the history of votes against is a non trivial part of conservative angst. There’s a vibe like PR is all about receiving checks while maintaining independence. It’s a very conservative take about national identity.
I’m a believer that PR should get two choices, statehood or independence plus a free trade agreement. Shit or get off the pot.
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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2019, 16:32

I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 28 Mar 2019, 16:32

Mo wrote:
JasonL wrote:I think the history of votes against is a non trivial part of conservative angst. There’s a vibe like PR is all about receiving checks while maintaining independence. It’s a very conservative take about national identity.
I’m a believer that PR should get two choices, statehood or independence plus a free trade agreement. Shit or get off the pot.
I think this is right.

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Andrew
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Andrew » 28 Mar 2019, 16:32

They should be given back to Spain.
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Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 28 Mar 2019, 16:39

nicole wrote:I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
Plan B. Puerto Rico goes away, but they take Mississippi and Alabama with them.
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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 28 Mar 2019, 16:42

nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:32
I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
I had a conversation with some conservative early 30 somethings a while ago. We were talking about trumpism and immigration and the peculiar idea that places like Alaska were the hotbeds of anti mexican immigrant animus. One guy says and I'm paraphrasing: "yeah the media gets this all wrong. It's not about race really, at least not directly, its literally because they think all those people will vote for democrats and increasing socialism forever. The fear of losing isn't really about white privilege per se, it's about the fear of permanent demographic shifts that will destroy land of the free type stuff in the US. They all believe Soros conspiracies and Clinton conspiracies and stuff because they see the US as an island of freedom falling under the waves of commie nonsense. They mess up because they buy the idea that flag waving america first is the way to fight that fight instead of another way to lose it."

That was a pretty solid take for super drunk randos I thought.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by lunchstealer » 28 Mar 2019, 16:55

Mo wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:39
nicole wrote:I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
Plan B. Puerto Rico goes away, but they take Mississippi and Alabama with them.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 28 Mar 2019, 17:00

JasonL wrote:
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:32
I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
I had a conversation with some conservative early 30 somethings a while ago. We were talking about trumpism and immigration and the peculiar idea that places like Alaska were the hotbeds of anti mexican immigrant animus. One guy says and I'm paraphrasing: "yeah the media gets this all wrong. It's not about race really, at least not directly, its literally because they think all those people will vote for democrats and increasing socialism forever. The fear of losing isn't really about white privilege per se, it's about the fear of permanent demographic shifts that will destroy land of the free type stuff in the US. They all believe Soros conspiracies and Clinton conspiracies and stuff because they see the US as an island of freedom falling under the waves of commie nonsense. They mess up because they buy the idea that flag waving america first is the way to fight that fight instead of another way to lose it."

That was a pretty solid take for super drunk randos I thought.
It’s a solid take, but it’s like saying the Civil War was about states rights instead of slavery. They don’t care about handouts and socialism for farmers or “real” Americans. It’s only bad when it goes to swarthy immigrants. It’s like how the opioid epidemic is a social crisis and the crack epidemic was a criminal crisis.
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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2019, 17:01

Mo wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:39
nicole wrote:I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
Plan B. Puerto Rico goes away, but they take Mississippi and Alabama with them.
You’ve got my vote.
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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2019, 17:04

Mo wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 17:00
JasonL wrote:
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:32
I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
I had a conversation with some conservative early 30 somethings a while ago. We were talking about trumpism and immigration and the peculiar idea that places like Alaska were the hotbeds of anti mexican immigrant animus. One guy says and I'm paraphrasing: "yeah the media gets this all wrong. It's not about race really, at least not directly, its literally because they think all those people will vote for democrats and increasing socialism forever. The fear of losing isn't really about white privilege per se, it's about the fear of permanent demographic shifts that will destroy land of the free type stuff in the US. They all believe Soros conspiracies and Clinton conspiracies and stuff because they see the US as an island of freedom falling under the waves of commie nonsense. They mess up because they buy the idea that flag waving america first is the way to fight that fight instead of another way to lose it."

That was a pretty solid take for super drunk randos I thought.
It’s a solid take, but it’s like saying the Civil War was about states rights instead of slavery. They don’t care about handouts and socialism for farmers or “real” Americans. It’s only bad when it goes to swarthy immigrants. It’s like how the opioid epidemic is a social crisis and the crack epidemic was a criminal crisis.
Yep exactly. Solid take but I’d also like to stop giving them cash to have babies.

That said, the opioid thing is kinda bs dude. My white uncle is in prison rn. Along with plenty of others. ETA unless you just mean that the narrative is indeed BS.
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Mo
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Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 28 Mar 2019, 17:13

nicole wrote:
Mo wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 17:00
JasonL wrote:
nicole wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 16:32
I mean, it’s not like it’s not true that giving more representation to poor people is worse for wealthier people. But we don’t usually run things that way.
I had a conversation with some conservative early 30 somethings a while ago. We were talking about trumpism and immigration and the peculiar idea that places like Alaska were the hotbeds of anti mexican immigrant animus. One guy says and I'm paraphrasing: "yeah the media gets this all wrong. It's not about race really, at least not directly, its literally because they think all those people will vote for democrats and increasing socialism forever. The fear of losing isn't really about white privilege per se, it's about the fear of permanent demographic shifts that will destroy land of the free type stuff in the US. They all believe Soros conspiracies and Clinton conspiracies and stuff because they see the US as an island of freedom falling under the waves of commie nonsense. They mess up because they buy the idea that flag waving america first is the way to fight that fight instead of another way to lose it."

That was a pretty solid take for super drunk randos I thought.
It’s a solid take, but it’s like saying the Civil War was about states rights instead of slavery. They don’t care about handouts and socialism for farmers or “real” Americans. It’s only bad when it goes to swarthy immigrants. It’s like how the opioid epidemic is a social crisis and the crack epidemic was a criminal crisis.
Yep exactly. Solid take but I’d also like to stop giving them cash to have babies.

That said, the opioid thing is kinda bs dude. My white uncle is in prison rn. Along with plenty of others. ETA unless you just mean that the narrative is indeed BS.
I mean the narrative rather than LEO response. National Review wasn’t talking about the crack epidemic through the lens of the despair of the inner city or some shit.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 28 Mar 2019, 17:20

Yeah. For sure.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 28 Mar 2019, 21:13

Conservatives who wring their hands about immigrants/poors voting socialism forever are really saying that they don't know or really care how to sell conservatism to brown people*. Which is weird because people from less-developed parts of the world tend to have more traditional views about the family, sexuality, and religion, and getting to this country through means legal or otherwise takes a lot of courage and hard work.

*or perhaps, more to the point, that conservatism is out of ideas entirely.
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Pham Nuwen
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Pham Nuwen » 28 Mar 2019, 21:17

Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 21:13
Conservatives who wring their hands about immigrants/poors voting socialism forever are really saying that they don't know or really care how to sell conservatism to brown people*. Which is weird because people from less-developed parts of the world tend to have more traditional views about the family, sexuality, and religion, and getting to this country through means legal or otherwise takes a lot of courage and hard work.

*or perhaps, more to the point, that conservatism is out of ideas entirely.
They know how to sell conservatism to the brown people. It's the brown part that is the problem. And honestly, if we lived in a world of white people it wouldn't matter. We would find a way to hate some group and talk about how they aren't sending their best. I think it's the human condition but we've refined it a bit. It's still there, "the Other", but we aren't really good at it these days.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Aresen » 28 Mar 2019, 23:18

Pham Nuwen wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 21:17
Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 21:13
Conservatives who wring their hands about immigrants/poors voting socialism forever are really saying that they don't know or really care how to sell conservatism to brown people*. Which is weird because people from less-developed parts of the world tend to have more traditional views about the family, sexuality, and religion, and getting to this country through means legal or otherwise takes a lot of courage and hard work.

*or perhaps, more to the point, that conservatism is out of ideas entirely.
They know how to sell conservatism to the brown people. It's the brown part that is the problem. And honestly, if we lived in a world of white people it wouldn't matter. We would find a way to hate some group and talk about how they aren't sending their best. I think it's the human condition but we've refined it a bit. It's still there, "the Other", but we aren't really good at it these days.
Yep. If we could just get rid of the goddamned Albigensians, everything would be fine.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Pham Nuwen » 28 Mar 2019, 23:21

Aresen wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 23:18
Pham Nuwen wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 21:17
Hugh Akston wrote:
28 Mar 2019, 21:13
Conservatives who wring their hands about immigrants/poors voting socialism forever are really saying that they don't know or really care how to sell conservatism to brown people*. Which is weird because people from less-developed parts of the world tend to have more traditional views about the family, sexuality, and religion, and getting to this country through means legal or otherwise takes a lot of courage and hard work.

*or perhaps, more to the point, that conservatism is out of ideas entirely.
They know how to sell conservatism to the brown people. It's the brown part that is the problem. And honestly, if we lived in a world of white people it wouldn't matter. We would find a way to hate some group and talk about how they aren't sending their best. I think it's the human condition but we've refined it a bit. It's still there, "the Other", but we aren't really good at it these days.
Yep. If we could just get rid of the goddamned Albigensians, everything would be fine.
I mean, god would know his own. Amiriteorwut?
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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 29 Mar 2019, 00:00

They don’t think it’s sellable without a long history of gradual cultural norm adoption.

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Hugh Akston
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 29 Mar 2019, 00:20

JasonL wrote:
29 Mar 2019, 00:00
They don’t think it’s sellable without a long history of gradual cultural norm adoption.
Right, which a) is wrong, and 2) speaks to their profound lack of faith in the appeal of their ideals.
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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 29 Mar 2019, 03:03

JasonL wrote:They don’t think it’s sellable without a long history of gradual cultural norm adoption.
Which as Hugh says is odd because immigrants generally come in with the plan to work hard and get ahead. Also, it fails to explain why groups that were formerly solidly conservative or closer to 50-50, like Asians or Cubans, have shifted away from the Republican Party hard. One edit I would make to Hugh is that your comments presume the Republican Party is selling conservatism rather than grievance politics for white people.
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Hugh Akston
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 29 Mar 2019, 03:19

Mo wrote:
29 Mar 2019, 03:03
JasonL wrote:They don’t think it’s sellable without a long history of gradual cultural norm adoption.
Which as Hugh says is odd because immigrants generally come in with the plan to work hard and get ahead. Also, it fails to explain why groups that were formerly solidly conservative or closer to 50-50, like Asians or Cubans, have shifted away from the Republican Party hard. One edit I would make to Hugh is that your comments presume the Republican Party is selling conservatism rather than grievance politics for white people.
Right, that was a yuge part of Trump's appeal and it's basically their brand now. The Republicans have been intellectually bankrupt since people figured out that Iraq/Afghanistan were quagmires, and Thin Blue Line Kulturkampf is a good vote getter in the short term.
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