Op-ediots

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Warren
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 04 Sep 2018, 11:20

Highway wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:59
Ellie wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:48
Yeah, I've heard "monkey that up" in lots and lots of contexts and never about a black person.
I didn't think that one was intentional, it was just ridiculous and stupid. That's the kind of thing that someone who's trying to be a politician should have a better handle on. I mean, Howard Cosell got in trouble for that in the 80s.
Please stop. "Look at that little monkey run" is categorically a different phrase than "monkey that up" which was a phrase in common parlance, heard in the politest of company.

It comes down to this: Yes, calling black people apes and monkeys has always been a thing, but not every utterance of 'ape' or 'monkey' is inherently racist.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by thoreau » 04 Sep 2018, 11:30

I'm second to none in my conviction that the GOP is racist to the core, yet I also grew up with a grandfather yelling at me "Don't monkey around with that!" I really don't think it was racist.

That said, smart PR would be to say "Yeah, I can see why people would take it that way, my bad."
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 04 Sep 2018, 11:31

I have never heard "monkey this up". I've heard "monkey around" and "muck it up" but never the union of the two. It literally never shows up in the Google Ngram viewer (looking for monkey it/this up) and the only Google references prior to this whole blow up is in updated links to articles about Desantis.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... irect_url=
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... irect_url=
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22monk ... 78&bih=785
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Dangerman
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Dangerman » 04 Sep 2018, 11:33

I've heard it as someone who fiddles without knowing what they're doing. I mean, I had to explain the phrase 'catch as catch can' to someone online yesterday.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by thoreau » 04 Sep 2018, 11:34

I have never heard "monkey this up". I've heard "monkey around" and "muck it up" but never the union of the two.
That makes me think he meant to say "monkey around with this" or had "mess this up" and "monkey around" both floating in his head when speaking on the fly.

I really don't think it was racist. I do think it would be smart PR to apologize for a mistake.
Last edited by thoreau on 04 Sep 2018, 11:35, edited 1 time in total.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JD » 04 Sep 2018, 11:35

Warren wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:20
Highway wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:59
Ellie wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:48
Yeah, I've heard "monkey that up" in lots and lots of contexts and never about a black person.
I didn't think that one was intentional, it was just ridiculous and stupid. That's the kind of thing that someone who's trying to be a politician should have a better handle on. I mean, Howard Cosell got in trouble for that in the 80s.
Please stop. "Look at that little monkey run" is categorically a different phrase than "monkey that up" which was a phrase in common parlance, heard in the politest of company.

It comes down to this: Yes, calling black people apes and monkeys has always been a thing, but not every utterance of 'ape' or 'monkey' is inherently racist.
No, it's not, but maybe one should be cautious about making ape or monkey references in the context of Black people. I think that's all that many people are saying, completely aside from whether DeSantis is a racist or was consciously making a racist remark.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 04 Sep 2018, 11:37

I buy the Josh Barro theory that this was intentional to get liberals to overreact.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 04 Sep 2018, 11:39

JD wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:35
Warren wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:20
Highway wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:59
Ellie wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:48
Yeah, I've heard "monkey that up" in lots and lots of contexts and never about a black person.
I didn't think that one was intentional, it was just ridiculous and stupid. That's the kind of thing that someone who's trying to be a politician should have a better handle on. I mean, Howard Cosell got in trouble for that in the 80s.
Please stop. "Look at that little monkey run" is categorically a different phrase than "monkey that up" which was a phrase in common parlance, heard in the politest of company.

It comes down to this: Yes, calling black people apes and monkeys has always been a thing, but not every utterance of 'ape' or 'monkey' is inherently racist.
No, it's not, but maybe one should be cautious about making ape or monkey references in the context of Black people. I think that's all that many people are saying, completely aside from whether DeSantis is a racist or was consciously making a racist remark.
I'll go as far as, he shouldn't dig in his heels over it. But "He should know better" on this shifting ground where the goal posts keep moving is too much to ask.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 04 Sep 2018, 11:41

Warren wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:39
JD wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:35
Warren wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:20
Highway wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:59
Ellie wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 10:48
Yeah, I've heard "monkey that up" in lots and lots of contexts and never about a black person.
I didn't think that one was intentional, it was just ridiculous and stupid. That's the kind of thing that someone who's trying to be a politician should have a better handle on. I mean, Howard Cosell got in trouble for that in the 80s.
Please stop. "Look at that little monkey run" is categorically a different phrase than "monkey that up" which was a phrase in common parlance, heard in the politest of company.

It comes down to this: Yes, calling black people apes and monkeys has always been a thing, but not every utterance of 'ape' or 'monkey' is inherently racist.
No, it's not, but maybe one should be cautious about making ape or monkey references in the context of Black people. I think that's all that many people are saying, completely aside from whether DeSantis is a racist or was consciously making a racist remark.
I'll go as far as, he shouldn't dig in his heels over it. But "He should know better" on this shifting ground where the goal posts keep moving is too much to ask.
FFS, that ground shifted back in the 80s. Joe Biden got hit for calling Obama clean and articulate over 10 years ago.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 04 Sep 2018, 11:44

Mo wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 11:37
I buy the Josh Barro theory that this was intentional to get liberals to overreact.
Eh. It's possible. But back to JasonL's point, there's no presumption of good faith in that accusation.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 04 Sep 2018, 12:18

Politics ain't beanbag. I was also noting how funny it was the defense of Desantis was complaining about what you couldn't call "[a] black".
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 04 Sep 2018, 12:58

Mo wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 12:18
Politics ain't beanbag.
That's racist.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JD » 04 Sep 2018, 13:38

I thought this might be interesting but mostly it is just an alternate take on "oh no technology will kill us all": https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ny/568330/

Basically, the author fears not so much that AI will become self-aware and have values indifferent to or inimical to humans, but that authorities will use AI and other improved data processing to centralize authority and exercise more control. There's probably an interesting article to be written there, but this isn't it. I see that the author has said "Homo sapiens as we know them will disappear in a century or so", so...
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Ellie » 04 Sep 2018, 13:50

So in a hundred years, no homo?
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by thoreau » 04 Sep 2018, 13:52

I haven't RTFA, but based on JD's description it sounds like homo managerial will be just fine. Value proposition FTW!!!!
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Eric the .5b » 04 Sep 2018, 18:53

JD wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 13:38
Basically, the author fears not so much that AI will become self-aware and have values indifferent to or inimical to humans, but that authorities will use AI and other improved data processing to centralize authority and exercise more control.
Then, gee fucking whiz, do something about authority and what you permit it to do.

Dumbfucks.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 04 Sep 2018, 21:21

So, DeSantis went to Harvard and Yale but somehow didn't realize "using the term 'monkey' in the context of Black people" is a bad idea. Even though the motherfucker is literally five years older than I am. And he totally deserves the benefit of the doubt, even though he was the moderator of a racist Facebook group. And spends his time talking about how Latinos are lawless. And proudly linked himself with Seb Gorka. But he totally deserves the benefit of the doubt. I gotta call bullshit.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by thoreau » 05 Sep 2018, 00:46

Shem wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 21:21
he was the moderator of a racist Facebook group. And spends his time talking about how Latinos are lawless. And proudly linked himself with Seb Gorka.
I was not aware of these facts, but I would consider these facts disqualifying in their own right. Whether or not that one line was offered in a racist way is irrelevant in comparison to the facts you've noted.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
--Shem

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Aresen » 05 Sep 2018, 01:05

Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 18:53
JD wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 13:38
Basically, the author fears not so much that AI will become self-aware and have values indifferent to or inimical to humans, but that authorities will use AI and other improved data processing to centralize authority and exercise more control.
Then, gee fucking whiz, do something about authority and what you permit it to do.

Dumbfucks.
Agree

This is really just an extension of the idea that 'Power is OK, so long as the right people are in charge?' Rather than worry about abuse of power, the question should be 'Why should this power exist at all?'
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Aresen » 05 Sep 2018, 01:11

thoreau wrote:
05 Sep 2018, 00:46
Shem wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 21:21
he was the moderator of a racist Facebook group. And spends his time talking about how Latinos are lawless. And proudly linked himself with Seb Gorka.
I was not aware of these facts, but I would consider these facts disqualifying in their own right. Whether or not that one line was offered in a racist way is irrelevant in comparison to the facts you've noted.
I had to look up the incident - which shows how out-of-touch I am - and agree that the person making the comment pretty much had to be aware of the implications of the phrase.

I confess, however, that I am so out of touch that I would have understood 'monkey it up' to mean 'screw it up' and been completely unaware of the racist angle.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JD » 05 Sep 2018, 10:31

Aresen wrote:
05 Sep 2018, 01:05
Eric the .5b wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 18:53
JD wrote:
04 Sep 2018, 13:38
Basically, the author fears not so much that AI will become self-aware and have values indifferent to or inimical to humans, but that authorities will use AI and other improved data processing to centralize authority and exercise more control.
Then, gee fucking whiz, do something about authority and what you permit it to do.

Dumbfucks.
Agree

This is really just an extension of the idea that 'Power is OK, so long as the right people are in charge?' Rather than worry about abuse of power, the question should be 'Why should this power exist at all?'
I mean, I kind of get his fears about the Total Surveillance State, but my reaction is "Since when has technology ever really been the determining factor?" Stalinist Russia, East Germany, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, North Korea; all were/are intensely repressive without the benefit of very advanced technology, while other, more technologically advanced states were not as repressive. Of course dictators are going to use any tool they have at their disposal, but I can't see any reason that AI is particularly going to enable that.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 05 Sep 2018, 11:13

Not the determining factor, but there are a number of examples where tech has accelerated body count. Punch cards in Nazi Germany, machine guns and poison gas in WWI, etc. Also, a lot of those mentioned regimes wee good at the panopticon and spycraft stuff. Like NoKo is shockingly good at hacking for how backwards they are in general.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 05 Sep 2018, 11:55

Punch cards are a weapons of mass destruction?
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Solitudinarian » 05 Sep 2018, 13:42

Warren wrote:
05 Sep 2018, 11:55
Punch cards are a weapons of mass destruction?
I suppose they could be, when used to facilitate genocide.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 05 Sep 2018, 17:20

I am not sure the anonymous WH staffer that wrote the NYT op ed comes off as noble as s/he thinks s/he actually is.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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