Op-ediots

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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 25 Oct 2017, 11:32

I’m not saying I agree with the criticism, I’m saying that I think there are pretty obvious non racist differences viewed from a conservative perspective.

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Shem
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 12:19

JasonL wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:32
I’m not saying I agree with the criticism, I’m saying that I think there are pretty obvious non racist differences viewed from a conservative perspective.
What are those?
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Shem
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 12:21

Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:38
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:08
Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 08:53
If the shoe fits. I mean "Haha conservatives only criticize rap music because black people" ignores the entirety of 1980's moral panics over Twisted Sister, Ozzy, et al.
Do you have any examples that aren't from 30 years ago?
The article uses Public Enemy as an example, I think mine are comparable.
People are still hyperventilating about Public Enemy. Do you have any examples of people still hyperventilating about Twisted Sister?
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Shem
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 12:23

Jake wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:15
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:08
Do you have any examples that aren't from 30 years ago?
There comes a point in every person's life, Shem, when everything one knows about youth culture will be from 30 years in the past. It's happened to me; it'll happen to you. Whippersnapper. ;)
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Dangerman
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Dangerman » 25 Oct 2017, 12:36

Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:21
Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:38
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:08
Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 08:53
If the shoe fits. I mean "Haha conservatives only criticize rap music because black people" ignores the entirety of 1980's moral panics over Twisted Sister, Ozzy, et al.
Do you have any examples that aren't from 30 years ago?
The article uses Public Enemy as an example, I think mine are comparable.
People are still hyperventilating about Public Enemy. Do you have any examples of people still hyperventilating about Twisted Sister?
The premise "conservatives only care about the dangers of rap music because black people" is countered by examples of hyperventilating over white people music in the same way, which I think I demonstrated. I don't know what your line of argument is here. dhex might have the strongest position when he points out the Satan aspect (as opposed to 'culture of violence), but that isn't what anyone else has said.

Are you (or anyone else) saying that this is a new phenomenon, and that only recent examples are relevant? Because Johnny Cash has been tossed out in this thread and he's been dead for 15 years or so.

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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 25 Oct 2017, 13:07

Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:19
JasonL wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:32
I’m not saying I agree with the criticism, I’m saying that I think there are pretty obvious non racist differences viewed from a conservative perspective.
What are those?
Going after the heroes in uniform using explicit language without even a nod to the flag is heresy of a higher order than what is contemplated in country music broadly.

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Eric the .5b » 25 Oct 2017, 13:51

Can either side here use examples from this century?
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Shem
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 13:54

Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:36
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:21
Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:38
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:08
Dangerman wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 08:53
If the shoe fits. I mean "Haha conservatives only criticize rap music because black people" ignores the entirety of 1980's moral panics over Twisted Sister, Ozzy, et al.
Do you have any examples that aren't from 30 years ago?
The article uses Public Enemy as an example, I think mine are comparable.
People are still hyperventilating about Public Enemy. Do you have any examples of people still hyperventilating about Twisted Sister?
The premise "conservatives only care about the dangers of rap music because black people" is countered by examples of hyperventilating over white people music in the same way, which I think I demonstrated.
People stopped hyperventilating about your examples decades ago. They're still hyperventilating about rap today, right now. Why do you think that is?
JasonL wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:07
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 12:19
JasonL wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 11:32
I’m not saying I agree with the criticism, I’m saying that I think there are pretty obvious non racist differences viewed from a conservative perspective.
What are those?
Going after the heroes in uniform using explicit language without even a nod to the flag is heresy of a higher order than what is contemplated in country music broadly.
If they limited complaints to talking about killing cops, you'd have a valid point. They don't. It joins with complaints about drug and crime references to becomes fodder for complaints about "criminality in the black community."
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Shem
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 13:58

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Eric the .5b » 25 Oct 2017, 14:22

Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
Meh. That may have overtones, but it's a distinct issue from yapping heads opining about music.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 25 Oct 2017, 14:29

If they limited complaints to talking about killing cops, you'd have a valid point. They don't. It joins with complaints about drug and crime references to becomes fodder for complaints about "criminality in the black community."
Of course it does. The binary is thugs and not thugs, or scumbags and not scumbags if you want a version less racially loaded. If you wave a flag you get a pretty big pass because you aren't a scumbag. If you wear more traditional clothing you get somewhat of a pass because you look less like a scumbag.

I'm not saying there are no racial overtones or effects, I'm saying the dominant feature of the thing is a rejection of the order and institutional worship at the core of conservatism. If you are a hippy, they hate you and bash you and roll their eyes at your lazy way of life, but they don't treat you as dangerous because your cultural signals are not wrapped in the language of violence. If you celebrate violence against the system, you are hated but also feared because you are saying things that sound like threats.

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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 25 Oct 2017, 14:56

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:22
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
Meh. That may have overtones, but it's a distinct issue from yapping heads opining about music.
Apparently a writer for the National Review thinks that conservatives still have an ideological issue with rap as of yesterday. None of the commenters seemed to dispute that.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Jennifer
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Jennifer » 25 Oct 2017, 15:16

Mo wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:22
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
Meh. That may have overtones, but it's a distinct issue from yapping heads opining about music.
Apparently a writer for the National Review thinks that conservatives still have an ideological issue with rap as of yesterday. None of the commenters seemed to dispute that.
If anything, a lot of commenters go out of their way to confirm that.

My post yesterday about country music as being "for thugs" and "not really music, just talking over drums" and whatnot was a parody mishmash of what I read in the comment thread. I can't get to the comments and dig up quotes from this computer, but -- ugh. It's not simply a matter of "I don't like that genre, plus I find many of the lyrics offensive" but "That's not music at all, not art, no talent or ability required, no melodies, it's just talking and grunting over drums. It also strongly suggests certain flaws inherent to members of a certain thug subculture, NotThatImARacist or anything."
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Dangerman
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Dangerman » 25 Oct 2017, 16:04

I didn't think the article was hyperventilating about rap, and I don't see any present examples of what Shem is referring to, which informs my opinion that "The premise 'conservatives hate on rap because black people' is not borne out by continuing hysteria about rap music." Does someone have an example in mind?

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 25 Oct 2017, 16:44

The entire premise of the article is that conservatives still dismiss rap out of hand for reasons that don't lead them to dismiss other genres of music. The comments to the article itself back that up. Did you read the article?
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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 25 Oct 2017, 16:58

Right, the author even says:
This remains an unfortunate blind spot for a political movement with a checkered record on race. Reform-minded conservatives have convincingly argued that the path up from white-identity politics runs toward a civic nationalism that is pan-ethnic, one that celebrates the shared cultural and artistic achievements of all Americans. If they’re right, then the conservative mind ought to rethink hip-hop, a sometimes-great and always uniquely American art form.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Jake
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Jake » 25 Oct 2017, 17:07

I'd like it very much if more people would take the "well, that's not really my cup of tea, but I'm glad you've found something that you enjoy" stance.

Apparently, that's just not How Things Are Done.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 25 Oct 2017, 17:17

These I believe:

1. Conservatives should accept rap as a thing.
2. Conservatives should refer to it as "the hipping and hopping rapping music that the young people like."
3. Conservatives should never ever attempt to make any kind of rap (again).
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Dangerman
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Dangerman » 25 Oct 2017, 18:03

Well, if the author says it...

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 25 Oct 2017, 18:06

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 17:17
These I believe:

1. Conservatives should accept rap as a thing.
2. Conservatives should refer to it as "the hipping and hopping rapping music that the young people like."
3. Conservatives should never ever attempt to make any kind of rap (again).
Whoa whoa whoa. Why do you hate hilarity? Conservatives should include a rap whenever making remarks on the floor of the House or Senate.
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Eric the .5b
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Eric the .5b » 25 Oct 2017, 20:09

Mo wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:22
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
Meh. That may have overtones, but it's a distinct issue from yapping heads opining about music.
Apparently a writer for the National Review thinks that conservatives still have an ideological issue with rap as of yesterday. None of the commenters seemed to dispute that.
That's fine. I just shake my head at people making specific song references in this topic with none of the songs referenced being too young to drink, and with some old enough to run for president.
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 25 Oct 2017, 20:25

Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 20:09
Mo wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:56
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 14:22
Shem wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:58
Eric the .5b wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 13:51
Can either side here use examples from this century?
How about prosecutors using rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials?
Meh. That may have overtones, but it's a distinct issue from yapping heads opining about music.
Apparently a writer for the National Review thinks that conservatives still have an ideological issue with rap as of yesterday. None of the commenters seemed to dispute that.
That's fine. I just shake my head at people making specific song references in this topic with none of the songs referenced being too young to drink, and with some old enough to run for president.
At least for me it's because I have little familiarity with the genre aside from the classics. It was never my jam. But hey, some people like to juggle geese.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Dangerman
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Dangerman » 26 Oct 2017, 08:32

I'm not trying to continue picking this bone with anyone here at grylliade, but with 0 actual examples except possibly the lived experiences of NR commenters, this feels like old generals arguing about which type of cavalry is best against the Maxim Gun.

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dhex
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by dhex » 26 Oct 2017, 08:44

personally, i've heard this song and dance (har har) at gatherings of my in-laws for (now, sigh) 20 years. it is not an uncommon sentiment among white folk on long island, to say the least. and yes it is always invoked in terms of being a driver/hallmark of the greater pathology of black america vis a vis white america. issues of "culture", broadly meaning, "why are these people poor and so violent?"

and yes i brought up reno/country music and whatnot, which often sidetracked things for a bit. (now no one there will talk to me, which is total victory)

but that's the context it's invoked in, otherwise it would just be a variation of "not my cup of tea". which is most certainly not what's being discussed. it's part of "what's wrong with those people?"

darkly amusing given the pill issues on long island among the white population. not sure what they blame that on.

but i feel like this is so common among white people of a certain inclination and age that it's not even worth arguing about. it is as though you're telling me the sun is green.
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Kolohe
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Kolohe » 26 Oct 2017, 08:52

dhex wrote:
26 Oct 2017, 08:44
darkly amusing given the pill issues on long island among the white population. not sure what they blame that on.
Trump blamed that on the Mexicans during his campaign ("they're bringing in the drugs, that's why we need A Wall"), which probably played a good part in how he won.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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