Op-ediots

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Mo
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Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 11 Jul 2017, 10:05

Because some things are just your opinion man.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Mo
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Mo » 11 Jul 2017, 10:09

I actually agreed with the general thrust of today's David Brooks column, but I chuckled that dhex is not accepted in the educated classes because he has wrongthink on David Foster Wallace.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 10:12

I literally was almost going to start a thread just now just for Brooksie.
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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 10:15

Everyone's favorite graf:
David fucking Brooks wrote:Recently I took a friend with only a high school degree to lunch. Insensitively, I led her into a gourmet sandwich shop. Suddenly I saw her face freeze up as she was confronted with sandwiches named “Padrino” and “Pomodoro” and ingredients like soppressata, capicollo and a striata baguette. I quickly asked her if she wanted to go somewhere else and she anxiously nodded yes and we ate Mexican.
Imagine the Chris Arnade-style reaction to the converse story, about an upper-middle class person who shows up at a McDonald's and doesn't know what to order. How arrogant, how smug! Are you too good for a Big Mac? What, you don't know what the secret sauce is made from? Didn't you learn that in college along with your course on lunch meats?

I *should* sympathize with this shit but I don't.
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Ellie
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Ellie » 11 Jul 2017, 10:17

American upper-middle-class culture (where the opportunities are) is now laced with cultural signifiers that are completely illegible unless you happen to have grown up in this class.
Now laced? As opposed to in the past, when we were such a class-free paradise, I guess.
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 10:17

Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:17
American upper-middle-class culture (where the opportunities are) is now laced with cultural signifiers that are completely illegible unless you happen to have grown up in this class.
Now laced? As opposed to in the past, when we were such a class-free paradise, I guess.
Exactly
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Warren
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 11 Jul 2017, 10:27

It's horseshit on the face of it. Multiple syllables and loanwords aren't some impenetrable cypher. We have the internet furkrystsakes. You can find out all about "Padrino" in literally seconds. (Is it anything like Godfather's Pizza?) If anything, people with basic tastes resent overly sophisticated food as pretentious and off-putting for its unfamiliar flavors.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by dhex » 11 Jul 2017, 10:38

jfc brooks jfc.

there's something of a nugget of something there, but like a serial killer he keeps humping it well past the point of death.

also his friend should kick him in the balls.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 11 Jul 2017, 10:53

nicole wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:15
Everyone's favorite graf:
David fucking Brooks wrote:Recently I took a friend with only a high school degree to lunch. Insensitively, I led her into a gourmet sandwich shop. Suddenly I saw her face freeze up as she was confronted with sandwiches named “Padrino” and “Pomodoro” and ingredients like soppressata, capicollo and a striata baguette. I quickly asked her if she wanted to go somewhere else and she anxiously nodded yes and we ate Mexican.
Imagine the Chris Arnade-style reaction to the converse story, about an upper-middle class person who shows up at a McDonald's and doesn't know what to order. How arrogant, how smug! Are you too good for a Big Mac? What, you don't know what the secret sauce is made from? Didn't you learn that in college along with your course on lunch meats?

I *should* sympathize with this shit but I don't.
There is kind of point to his op-ed, but knowing what lunch meats are what is mostly a function of living in cities with lots of Italians and Jews.
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Fin Fang Foom
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 11 Jul 2017, 10:56

Most importantly, any "upscale" sandwich shop is probably going to be pretty ass-flavored.
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Ellie
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Ellie » 11 Jul 2017, 11:01

nicole wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:17
Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:17
American upper-middle-class culture (where the opportunities are) is now laced with cultural signifiers that are completely illegible unless you happen to have grown up in this class.
Now laced? As opposed to in the past, when we were such a class-free paradise, I guess.
Exactly
I have nothing to base this declaration on but my gut feeling (then again that is true for Brooks's piece as well) but I'd argue there are fewer illegible cultural signifiers. Even if the number of signifiers is the same (it's certainly not higher) we have TV and the internet now. We scum are way MORE aware of upper middle class totems than ever before.

Also, I didn't really see how he connected "liking fancy shit" to "actively trying to prevent other people from having the same opportunities as you," but I admit to not reading that closely because whatever
I should have listened to Warren. He was right again as usual.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 11:16

Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 11:01
nicole wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:17
Ellie wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 10:17
American upper-middle-class culture (where the opportunities are) is now laced with cultural signifiers that are completely illegible unless you happen to have grown up in this class.
Now laced? As opposed to in the past, when we were such a class-free paradise, I guess.
Exactly
I have nothing to base this declaration on but my gut feeling (then again that is true for Brooks's piece as well) but I'd argue there are fewer illegible cultural signifiers. Even if the number of signifiers is the same (it's certainly not higher) we have TV and the internet now. We scum are way MORE aware of upper middle class totems than ever before.

Also, I didn't really see how he connected "liking fancy shit" to "actively trying to prevent other people from having the same opportunities as you," but I admit to not reading that closely because whatever
That's actually the part that grated on me the most, and also what made me mention Arnade.

For those who aren't familiar with him, he's a journalist who has been hanging out in "flyover country"/"Trump country"/"real America" and chit-chatting with people about what they care about, going to McDonald's in the morning and taking pictures of the old people who hang out there and stuff. He's gotten internet-famous talking about how the "front-row kids" (well-educated elites who disdain Trump voters) need to be nice to the "back-row kids" (rural people who haven't had good educational opportunities and aren't necessarily just a bunch of racists)* and try to understand them and stuff, because we all live in a country together and can't we all just get along.

Well, no, because that's not how massive groups of people work. So why don't you just let people sort of *not* get along but also not try to actively harm each other? Just because we don't necessarily want to hang out together doesn't mean we want to hurt each other either.

*At first I was super confused by the front-row/back-row nomenclature and now I just find it hilarious. I, an educated upper middle-class person by most definitions, went to schools where the kids who sat in the front row were the popular, disruptive kids who went on to mediocre colleges if they went at all, while the back rows were filled with the more studious and less cool. Even accepting that the broader social dynamic involves a dominant educated class, the idea that this kind of effete, arts-oriented group was socially dominant in high school as well is would be insulting if it weren't just bizarre.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Shem » 11 Jul 2017, 11:20

Best response
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 11 Jul 2017, 12:04

Ok so I haven't read the whole thing but I find myself eyerolling IRL about the narrow range of cultural signifiers that are acceptable to the Real Murican classes. You have to drink beer or whiskey. You can't find anything wrong with action movies or ever prefer something slower or too talky. It's a very narrow cultural prison that is only obliquely related to the cost of alternatives. EVERYTHING else is uppity, snobish, and inauthentic, and in particular everything else is something you choose to try to make people feel bad. I get there's punching up and punching down and okay, but it is tiresome.

I had a conversation a few weeks ago in which someone was making fun of me talking about good ramen. I was like no really you can get sun noodle frozen for like $2.00 and it will blow your mind. Hur hur i can melt velveeta in that right. I mean right, I've done that with instant and liked it and I didn't say anything about that, I'm just saying there's a $2.00 option that is really great. Why can't that just be okay?

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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 12:06

JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
Ok so I haven't read the whole thing but I find myself eyerolling IRL about the narrow range of cultural signifiers that are acceptable to the Real Murican classes. You have to drink beer or whiskey. You can't find anything wrong with action movies or ever prefer something slower or too talky. It's a very narrow cultural prison that is only obliquely related to the cost of alternatives. EVERYTHING else is uppity, snobish, and inauthentic, and in particular everything else is something you choose to try to make people feel bad. I get there's punching up and punching down and okay, but it is tiresome.

I had a conversation a few weeks ago in which someone was making fun of me talking about good ramen. I was like no really you can get sun noodle frozen for like $2.00 and it will blow your mind. Hur hur i can melt velveeta in that right. I mean right, I've done that with instant and liked it and I didn't say anything about that, I'm just saying there's a $2.00 option that is really great. Why can't that just be okay?
Right, exactly.

Generalizing, I would say that, you know, the people who did grow up with that/currently live with that have a lot less sympathy for the Arnadean view. But that's my bias.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Jul 2017, 12:13

JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
Ok so I haven't read the whole thing but I find myself eyerolling IRL about the narrow range of cultural signifiers that are acceptable to the Real Murican classes.
I assume by "Real Murican Classes" you mean every class in America?
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 12:26

Right on cue. (Not sure how this will look in the new system, but you should read the couple earlier tweets in the thread.) Exactly what I'm talking about, acting as if friend-opportunities are the same as material ones.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 11 Jul 2017, 12:36

Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
Ok so I haven't read the whole thing but I find myself eyerolling IRL about the narrow range of cultural signifiers that are acceptable to the Real Murican classes.
I assume by "Real Murican Classes" you mean every class in America?
Not really. I'm saying a certain class in America defined itself by very narrow signifiers even compared to other American classes. The entrance fee is making fun of every other thing as fake.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Jul 2017, 12:44

JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:36
Hugh Akston wrote:
JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
Ok so I haven't read the whole thing but I find myself eyerolling IRL about the narrow range of cultural signifiers that are acceptable to the Real Murican classes.
I assume by "Real Murican Classes" you mean every class in America?
Not really. I'm saying a certain class in America defined itself by very narrow signifiers even compared to other American classes. The entrance fee is making fun of every other thing as fake.
Is there more to single out the class in question than your ramen encounter? Because as far as I can tell partaking of a narrow range of the possible signifiers to signal in/outgrouping is how cultural capital works.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 11 Jul 2017, 12:59

People who talk about "normal" foods music movies etc, meaning one 3 allowable things. Bud light or Miller light pick one. No other beverage is normal. Mac and cheese, chicken fingers, burgers pizza. Other food is weird. Girls have long hair. Football and baseball. Ungrammatical English only. No other languages but also as few complete sentences as possible.

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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Hugh Akston » 11 Jul 2017, 13:09

I guess I'll have to trust you that there's something uniquely exclusionary about this class, because I've never encountered a member of it in the wild. And again literally every class engages in outgroup shaming to some degree, if not in the same terms or degree of overtness.

EDIT: word add
Last edited by Hugh Akston on 11 Jul 2017, 13:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 11 Jul 2017, 13:10

JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
I had a conversation a few weeks ago in which someone was making fun of me talking about good ramen. I was like no really you can get sun noodle frozen for like $2.00 and it will blow your mind. Hur hur i can melt velveeta in that right. I mean right, I've done that with instant and liked it and I didn't say anything about that, I'm just saying there's a $2.00 option that is really great. Why can't that just be okay?
Because for some people the dry kind with velveeta is actually better than sun noodle with ginger-chili-soy sauce.
You like what you like and that's great. You're not being a dick because you have acquired tastes. Just don't expect other people to like what you like.
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by Warren » 11 Jul 2017, 13:14

JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:59
People who talk about "normal" foods music movies etc, meaning one 3 allowable things. Bud light or Miller light pick one. No other beverage is normal. Mac and cheese, chicken fingers, burgers pizza. Other food is weird. Girls have long hair. Football and baseball. Ungrammatical English only. No other languages but also as few complete sentences as possible.
Wait a minute. I just got what you're saying. You are whining about people calling you snobby. Claiming those people are the real snobs.
ha ha ha ha
And another patriot enlists in the victim army. Now there's a cultural signifier.
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JasonL
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by JasonL » 11 Jul 2017, 13:35

No they aren't snobs. They are culturally straightjacketed in to a definition of normal or acceptable that is so narrow it makes me sad, plus yes I hate being called a snob when I talk about a $2.00 pack of frozen ramen or an $8 malbec.

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nicole
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Re: Op-ediots

Post by nicole » 11 Jul 2017, 13:38

Warren wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 13:10
JasonL wrote:
11 Jul 2017, 12:04
I had a conversation a few weeks ago in which someone was making fun of me talking about good ramen. I was like no really you can get sun noodle frozen for like $2.00 and it will blow your mind. Hur hur i can melt velveeta in that right. I mean right, I've done that with instant and liked it and I didn't say anything about that, I'm just saying there's a $2.00 option that is really great. Why can't that just be okay?
Because for some people the dry kind with velveeta is actually better than sun noodle with ginger-chili-soy sauce.
You like what you like and that's great. You're not being a dick because you have acquired tastes. Just don't expect other people to like what you like.
Remember those Asian sliders you took to the superbowl party?
Trumpkins: Velveeta is the only way to eat ramen!
Right-thinkers: Elites, you must listen to the earthy wisdom of the white working class.

meanwhile

Elites: I prefer ramen with ginger.
Right-thinkers: THIS IS HOW YOU GET TRUMP!
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