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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 06 Nov 2017, 17:14
by Mo
Sergeyt is the best name for this scandal.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 11:43
by Dangerman
To anyone (not here, but in general) who ever sighed "Ugh, why can't we do X like Europe?" ha ha now we do.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 07 Nov 2017, 11:52
by Aresen
Dangerman wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 11:43
To anyone (not here, but in general) who ever sighed "Ugh, why can't we do X like Europe?" ha ha now we do.
The only socio-political thing I wish Americans did like Europe is shut up about religion. :roll:

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 08 Nov 2017, 14:38
by thoreau
Corey Lewandowski gave Carter Page permission to go to Russia. He is only remembering it now.

https://thinkprogress.org/corey-lewando ... 16088ab61/

Yeah, I'm sure that the trip was totally innocent, as was the reason for forgetting about it until now.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 00:56
by thoreau

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 09:37
by Solitudinarian
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 00:56
Hey! Look! Over there!

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/13/politics/ ... index.html
After all, just because crime and corruption may be involved with "over there" doesn't mean we should look into it.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 09:50
by the innominate one
How many investigations into the Clintons have actually found crimes? Of those crimes, how many times have charges been filed? Of those charges, how many convictions resulted? What's the likelihood that there is actually a crime in this case, in comparison to the likelihood that this is a politically motivated stunt? What crime is suspected? What evidence is there to suggest a crime?

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 10:45
by Aresen
As I look at the state of the ruling class, sometimes I feel very Bolshevik.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 11:42
by JasonL
Until you note that these current people are the output of Bolshevik instincts. The bad old people were the aristocracy.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 12:19
by Shem
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:42
Until you note that these current people are the output of Bolshevik instincts. The bad old people were the aristocracy.
Nah bro, this is all the lumpenproles. It's the 18 Brumaire of Donald Trump up in here.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 12:21
by JasonL
I see minimal distinction between lumpenproles and bolsheviks. I think that's even a direct translation from the russian.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 12:49
by Fin Fang Foom
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 12:21
I see minimal distinction between lumpenproles and bolsheviks. I think that's even a direct translation from the russian.
No.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 13:04
by JasonL
Rabble rousing populism, rebelling against something truly terrible in the case of the bolsheviks but against a kind of meh consensus in the current case, but with a stupidity at its core.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 13:44
by Jennifer
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:04
Rabble rousing populism, rebelling against something truly terrible in the case of the bolsheviks but against a kind of meh consensus in the current case, but with a stupidity at its core.
Except the Bolsheviks rebelled against actual Czarist oppression; they didn't spin overinvolved conspiracy theories a la "Hmm, this letter from the Grand Duchess ordering pizza for the next palace dinner is obviously code for 'The Czarina heads a child sex-and-cannibalism cult operating out of a borscht shack's nonexistent basement'."

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:03
by Kolohe
Jennifer wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:44
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:04
Rabble rousing populism, rebelling against something truly terrible in the case of the bolsheviks but against a kind of meh consensus in the current case, but with a stupidity at its core.
Except the Bolsheviks rebelled against actual Czarist oppression; they didn't spin overinvolved conspiracy theories a la "Hmm, this letter from the Grand Duchess ordering pizza for the next palace dinner is obviously code for 'The Czarina heads a child sex-and-cannibalism cult operating out of a borscht shack's nonexistent basement'."
That's not *too* far off from what Rasputin and the Czarina were up to.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:23
by JasonL
Punch line - I believe that populism is the essence of populist movements. The rest is window dressing. The people leading movements or the faces of the movements may really believe some specific things, but the very essence of the crowd behind them is South Parkian outraged audience sound “BLAAHblahblah”. It is a generally shapeless, contentless reaction to a point in history. Mobs are all stupid and in similar ways.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:31
by the innominate one
rabblerabblerabble

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:33
by Aresen
Jennifer wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:44
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 13:04
Rabble rousing populism, rebelling against something truly terrible in the case of the bolsheviks but against a kind of meh consensus in the current case, but with a stupidity at its core.
Except the Bolsheviks rebelled against actual Czarist oppression;
Needs more history.

The Bolsheviks (translates roughly as 'majority') overthrew the Kerensky government. The Tsar had been gone for six months. November 7, 1917 was essentially a putsch by a small, but very militant, minority who had no patience with a parliamentary democracy. They had gained control of the army by infiltrating cadres and turned the army against the government.

If the Kerensky government had negotiated a truce with the Germans in May 1917, the Bolsheviks would never have come to power.

Incidentally, they claimed the name 'Bolshevik' because they were a majority within the Communist Party. The Mensheviks ('Minority') advocated working within a democratic system.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:34
by Shem
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 12:21
I see minimal distinction between lumpenproles and bolsheviks. I think that's even a direct translation from the russian.
You're completely wrong. Lumpenproles are people displaced or disconnected from the interactions of labor and capital. It leaves them with no connection to the economic system and therefore no interest in seeing it maintained in any form. Labor wants to change the world to control their own labor, capital wants to maintain their position, but all the lumpenproles want is to see every system they view as responsible for their situation burn. It's why they're still happy with Trump; they've given up on reconnecting to the system, and now they just want to see everyone else broken off it too. I really can't recommend"The 18 Brumaire of Louis Napoleon" enough; it's eerie how well it speaks to the Trump phenomenon.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:48
by JasonL
Er. Hmm. Only if you take Marx as essentially correct in his view, which, I don't see any evidence that would lead me in that direction. I don't think political mobs of what he calls lumpenproles have ideas. I think they are temporarily malleable to sound like leftist (Own Your Labor!) or rightist (Law and Order!) movements. Class consciousness is the gloss he gives to the angry mob narrative he preferred to endorse. Could just as easily be Patriotism. Or whatever. Depending on the set of conditions and dominant narratives of the day at the time when lumpens are stirred to the streets.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 14:51
by thoreau
I don't think we have to take Marx as an authority on anything to note that some people want a piece of the pie within a framework that still lets others have plenty of pie and keeps the bakery running, while others are pissed and just want to see the system burn. Some people break windows to make that happen, others vote for the self-evident joke who is unlikely to accomplish much except piss off their enemies.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 15:01
by Shem
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:48
Er. Hmm. Only if you take Marx as essentially correct in his view, which, I don't see any evidence that would lead me in that direction. I don't think political mobs of what he calls lumpenproles have ideas. I think they are temporarily malleable to sound like leftist (Own Your Labor!) or rightist (Law and Order!) movements. Class consciousness is the gloss he gives to the angry mob narrative he preferred to endorse. Could just as easily be Patriotism. Or whatever. Depending on the set of conditions and dominant narratives of the day at the time when lumpens are stirred to the streets.
Before I respond, I just want to be clear, is it your contention that you have a firm handle on what Marx meant when he coined the term "Lumpenproletariat?"

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 15:51
by JasonL
I am familiar with the term as meaning something like “the type of exploited labor which cannot or will not achieve class consciousness and therefore remains part of the problem”. Like a property criminal might be one because they are unconnected through labor to their consumption. My sense is the term has expanded in sincere lefty circles over the years to include anyone who “didn’t get it”. It’s been a while though.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 16:00
by JasonL
thoreau wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 14:51
I don't think we have to take Marx as an authority on anything to note that some people want a piece of the pie within a framework that still lets others have plenty of pie and keeps the bakery running, while others are pissed and just want to see the system burn. Some people break windows to make that happen, others vote for the self-evident joke who is unlikely to accomplish much except piss off their enemies.
So the argument here is a trumpian populism would be materially different from say a sandersian populism in motives or legitimacy or coherence of thought? I hear that sort of thing all the time, but I kind of feel like it's yet another example of people wanting to excuse stupidity that sounds like their view of the world. I think most if not all of the attempts to draw this distinction fail down in the details.

Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Posted: 14 Nov 2017, 16:05
by Shem
JasonL wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 15:51
I am familiar with the term as meaning something like “the type of exploited labor which cannot or will not achieve class consciousness and therefore remains part of the problem”. Like a property criminal might be one because they are unconnected through labor to their consumption. My sense is the term has expanded in sincere lefty circles over the years to include anyone who “didn’t get it”. It’s been a while though.
That's not what it is. It's people who are either disconnected to systems of labor and capital or who were never connected in the first place, and who are therefore not invested in the progress of society. It's not just a synonym for "people who won't get with the program." It's people who reject the idea of a program. The former coal miner who would rather vote Trump and watch the world burn than take advantage of the readily available retraining program is a member of the lumpenproletariat. The guy who thinks we'd all be better off if we would just get out of the way and let businessmen run things isn't.