Occam, Trump, and Russia

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 25 Mar 2019, 19:27

His cooperation on the Buryakov matter had been over for years by that point, so a new one would be needed, unless they want to be FISAing everyone forever. Plus the Steele Dossier wasn't the only thing they used; the investigation started with that loudmouth Papadopoulos and the information that arose as a result of his drunken idiocy.
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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 25 Mar 2019, 19:41

Julian Sanchez makes some good points in this thread:

"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Kolohe
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 25 Mar 2019, 19:49

Mo wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 14:25
Michael Avenatti, chaos monkey, steals Trump’s good news cycle.
I disagree. This is a gift to Trump. (And even moreso if Smollette's lawyer is also involved)
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Kolohe
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 25 Mar 2019, 19:53

I have a counterintuitive hot take that the weak 'exoneration' gloss of the Barr summary of the Mueller report is good news for the Dems, because it fires them up, while lulling the Trumpistanis into a self satified smugness.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 25 Mar 2019, 20:59

Trump is already making revanchist noises, so I've no doubt he'll manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory before long.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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fyodor
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by fyodor » 25 Mar 2019, 22:45

So, does anyone know the legitimate reasons for not releasing the entire report?

BTW, regarding what "collusion means", I would think that's where DAR's insistence on "stipulatively defined terms" (ironically, spellcheck doesn't like "stipulatively"!) would actually finally carry some relevance (grin!). That is, presumably there's a specific legal definition and thus any other potential definitions wouldn't matter to this purpose. Of course, precedent may possibly bear some weight on how that term gets legally stipulated at any point in time...?
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Aresen » 25 Mar 2019, 23:01

At this point, I don't think it matters what the report says. Mueller could be 99.44% sure that there was collusion but didn't have the evidence to prosecute, but the narrative now is "Trump Innocent" (in the minds of anyone outside of Blue partisans and "Never Trumpers".). Any further attempt to pursue it is going to look like flogging a dead horse.

The best strategy for Team Blue at this point is to focus on getting out the vote in 2020, which was their main failure in 2016. Trump has alienated a lot of the traditional conservatives and centrists - Team Blue can gain votes there as well. They don't need a landslide in 2020, just 100,000 more votes in the right places.
Shem wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 20:59
Trump is already making revanchist noises, so I've no doubt he'll manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory before long.
Also, What the Great Shem says.
If Trump supporters wanted a tough guy, why did they elect such a whiny bitch? - Mo

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 25 Mar 2019, 23:28

If I were Putin, I'd have my picture taken now with a "Trump Pence 2020" hat on.

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 26 Mar 2019, 00:08

fyodor wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 22:45
So, does anyone know the legitimate reasons for not releasing the entire report?
You mean "legitimate" like "a good reason not to," or "legitimate" like "the actual reason they don't want to do it?" For the former, the only reason would be to defend counterintelligence sources or confidential informants. But of course, that could be done with some redacting. For the latter, Mueller provided all the justification for and against charging all the people who he looked at, and I'm guessing that a prosecutor who isn't as dedicated to protecting the President as Barr is would be more that willing to roll the dice on charging at least a few of them.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 26 Mar 2019, 00:19

Shem wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 00:08
fyodor wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 22:45
So, does anyone know the legitimate reasons for not releasing the entire report?
You mean "legitimate" like "a good reason not to," or "legitimate" like "the actual reason they don't want to do it?" For the former, the only reason would be to defend counterintelligence sources or confidential informants. But of course, that could be done with some redacting. For the latter, Mueller provided all the justification for and against charging all the people who he looked at, and I'm guessing that a prosecutor who isn't as dedicated to protecting the President as Barr is would be more that willing to roll the dice on charging at least a few of them.
Exculpatory evidence is subject to disclosure on a routine discovery motion, as is pretty much all of whatever the prosecutor would present in court, so I don't see any good non-political reason for withholding the report, subject to a bit of light redacting for whatever national security concerns there might be.

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by fyodor » 26 Mar 2019, 00:32

Yeah the former is what I meant, so thanks. That's kinda what I thought. I thought I heard that Barr said something about laws regarding secrecy of the grand jury, and I wasn't sure what the hell that was about, but maybe it's pretty much just the same thing in different window dressing....
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Mo » 26 Mar 2019, 05:28

fyodor wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 00:32
I thought I heard that Barr said something about laws regarding secrecy of the grand jury, and I wasn't sure what the hell that was about, but maybe it's pretty much just the same thing in different window dressing....
Well, if there's an ongoing grand jury, then you can't share that info while the grand jury is going through because those are confidential while they're going on.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 27 Mar 2019, 09:48

We're in the endgame now.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... rt/585703/

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"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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fyodor
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by fyodor » 27 Mar 2019, 20:35

Mo wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 05:28
fyodor wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 00:32
I thought I heard that Barr said something about laws regarding secrecy of the grand jury, and I wasn't sure what the hell that was about, but maybe it's pretty much just the same thing in different window dressing....
Well, if there's an ongoing grand jury, then you can't share that info while the grand jury is going through because those are confidential while they're going on.
And afterward, sounds like it's a different story?

Also, any thoughts on the Reason thing on the hotheaded angle? (Too lazy to link from phone) Makes me think of Julia's comments and the old saw, hiding in plain sight.

As for folks saying forget about it move on, you're absolutely right. Good advice for Dems and good to keep it in perspective for anyone (for anything!). Same time, as long as it's a hot topic, kinda wanna reduce my ignorance on the subject somewhat....
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Eric the .5b » 27 Mar 2019, 21:35

thoreau wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 09:48
We're in the endgame now.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... rt/585703/

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
Thoreau? At this point, short of someone leaking a video of him raping one of his kids, he's not leaving office before 2021.

I'd like to believe that Trump's crimes could be exposed so that even the Republican Senate would turn on him...but they won't. It'll just be bellows of "liberal conspiracy" and dismissal until the Secret Service frog-marches him onto the helicopter and says, "Buh-bye."
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 27 Mar 2019, 21:41

I need my fantasies, Eric.

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by fyodor » 27 Mar 2019, 21:48

Redacted - leading by example!
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fyodor
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by fyodor » 27 Mar 2019, 22:19

fyodor wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 20:35
Mo wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 05:28
fyodor wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 00:32
I thought I heard that Barr said something about laws regarding secrecy of the grand jury, and I wasn't sure what the hell that was about, but maybe it's pretty much just the same thing in different window dressing....
Well, if there's an ongoing grand jury, then you can't share that info while the grand jury is going through because those are confidential while they're going on.
And afterward, sounds like it's a different story?

Also, any thoughts on the Reason thing on the hotheaded angle? (Too lazy to link from phone) Makes me think of Julia's comments
Um Julian's
Your optimism just confuses and enrages me. - Timothy

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Warren » 31 Mar 2019, 20:23

fyodor wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 22:19
fyodor wrote:
27 Mar 2019, 20:35
Mo wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 05:28
fyodor wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 00:32
I thought I heard that Barr said something about laws regarding secrecy of the grand jury, and I wasn't sure what the hell that was about, but maybe it's pretty much just the same thing in different window dressing....
Well, if there's an ongoing grand jury, then you can't share that info while the grand jury is going through because those are confidential while they're going on.
And afterward, sounds like it's a different story?

Also, any thoughts on the Reason thing on the hotheaded angle? (Too lazy to link from phone) Makes me think of Julia's comments
Um Julian's
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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 16 Apr 2019, 19:07

A nice round up of different intelligence terms and how the Trump campaign fits in.

https://www.justsecurity.org/63660/is-t ... the-facts/

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Taktix® » 17 Apr 2019, 04:25

fyodor wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 22:45
So, does anyone know the legitimate reasons for not releasing the entire report?

BTW, regarding what "collusion means", I would think that's where DAR's insistence on "stipulatively defined terms" (ironically, spellcheck doesn't like "stipulatively"!) would actually finally carry some relevance (grin!). That is, presumably there's a specific legal definition and thus any other potential definitions wouldn't matter to this purpose. Of course, precedent may possibly bear some weight on how that term gets legally stipulated at any point in time...?
It's also worth noting that the Gang of Eight is allowed to see under all four colors of redaction (he has a color code apparently).

And that Barr pulled this same shit as Deputy AG under Bush trying to hide a memo Barr authored that was supposed to permit the FBI to arrest foreign leaders after the Panama/Noriega coup went sour in 1989. It was even called a "summary of principle conclusions" too, but looked nothing like the actual memo, released in 1993 when no one cared.

Also, during the first hearing of several FOIA suits today (∏ Buzzfeed News), the judge said he has the right to request the unredacted Mueller report, which is probably a longshot but hey maybe it'll start a flood of opportunists and maybe a leak or two...
"Guilty as charged. Go ahead and ban me from the mall." - Ellie

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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 20 Apr 2019, 02:44



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"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Painboy » 20 Apr 2019, 16:09

Well if Facebook has taught me anything I'm pretty sure "owning" the other side of the aisle is the only qualification for a politician these days.

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 21 Apr 2019, 01:52

Painboy wrote:
20 Apr 2019, 16:09
Well if Facebook has taught me anything I'm pretty sure "owning" the other side of the aisle is the only qualification for a politician these days.
Say what you will about the tenets of Democratic Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos.
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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 21 Apr 2019, 13:06

Giuliani says that there's nothing wrong with accepting campaign assistance from a foreign government.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/21/politics ... index.html

Just to be clear, is that a blanket statement, or does it only apply to candidates with an (R) behind their name? To wit, if Bernie Sanders were to accept help from Venezuela, or if China were to help Kamala Harris' campaign because of their common interest in prison labor, would that still be legal?
"They were basically like D&D min maxers, but instead of pissing off their DM, they destroyed the global economy. Also, instead of their DM making a level 7 paladin fight a beholder as punishment, he got a +3 sword of turning."
--Mo

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