Occam, Trump, and Russia

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Warren
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Warren » 16 Nov 2017, 11:51

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 11:14
Mississippi, wherever place you like with huge percent of population completely unable to justify employed existence at a national $15 rate.
So you're talking about some future dystopia cyberpunk world.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

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JasonL
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 13:11

I understand why you would say that. You have an ability to see as serious arguments things I find transparently absurd and vacuous in a particular way that touches on notions of rabble rousing or populism. I would say that you are insufficiently cynical of movements in this class, and as you did here you would view my calling out that argument just a matter of aesthetics.

I would take your view to be severely wrongheaded as the framework to analyze what happens once the apple cart has been flipped in that it looks too seriously at the movement true believers and not at all what what 90% of the people in the street are actually doing, which is simply being mad and wanting radical change.

EDIT : this responding to Shem

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JasonL
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 13:12

Warren wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 11:51
JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 11:14
Mississippi, wherever place you like with huge percent of population completely unable to justify employed existence at a national $15 rate.
So you're talking about some future dystopia cyberpunk world.
If you drop $15/hour on low skill states you will get the dystopia you deserve.

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Jennifer
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 13:33

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 10:15
$15/hr is why all of alabama is unemployed.
The entire state? Refresh my memory if you will -- do you still take the stance that any use of hyperbole as a rhetorical device is de facto evidence of dishonesty if not outright insanity on the part of the person using it?
I understand why you would say that. You have an ability to see as serious arguments things I find transparently absurd and vacuous in a particular way that touches on notions of rabble rousing or populism.
One could just as easily counter you have an ability to dismiss as transparently absurd and vacuous any serious argument you personally disagree with.
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JasonL
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 14:06

Hyperbole is like hot sauce not like salt and pepper.

italics for emphasis also like hot sauce.

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Jennifer
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 14:20

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:06
Hyperbole is like hot sauce not like salt and pepper.
Which is Jasonese for "Okay from me, but not from thee." Okay, but I'm still not seeing anything in your arguments here separating "a mob" from "any political movement JasonL doesn't approve of." Back in the day when you were arguing we needed to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam because something something 9/11, were you part of a "mob" or a "well-meaning, carefully reasoned political movement which unfortunately turned out to be basing its arguments on false information?"
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by JasonL » 16 Nov 2017, 14:49

I've given criteria and cases that are and are not mobs. It is not the case that any arbitrary political position I dislike is subject to the populist mob critique. Gun control people are not populists, that usually goes the other way because the noble real american is having guns taken away by coastal elites. That's a populist argument. There has to be a common man and an evil elite for it to be populism. It's almost like you've never heard the term before? There has to be alot of people motivated by that narrative for it to be a populist movement. They have to seek radical change and take to the streets and such for it to be a mob.

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Jennifer » 16 Nov 2017, 15:00

JasonL wrote:
16 Nov 2017, 14:49
I've given criteria and cases that are and are not mobs. It is not the case that any arbitrary political position I dislike is subject to the populist mob critique. Gun control people are not populists, that usually goes the other way because the noble real american is having guns taken away by coastal elites. That's a populist argument. There has to be a common man and an evil elite for it to be populism. It's almost like you've never heard the term before? There has to be alot of people motivated by that narrative for it to be a populist movement. They have to seek radical change and take to the streets and such for it to be a mob.
By the very definition you gave here, gun-control people are certainly populist: there's a common man (and common children too, all those heartbreaking photos of adorable kids you see in the media after a school shooting) who are being harmed by the system we have now; there's the evil elite cabal of gun manufacturers, NRA-holes and bribable congressmen (supported by paranoid and usually racist gun nuts overcompensating for their Freudian inadequacies, of course) who could easily fix the problem but refuse to lest it hurt their profit margin. Many are certainly seeking radical changes to gun laws and the second amendment, and have even taken to the streets in anti-gun protest rallies.

Was supporting the post-9/11 Iraq War a mob action, or not? Common man (not just the ordinary Iraqis who'd greet us as liberators, but also ordinary Americans threatened by the al-Qaeda terrorists who did not actually have Hussein's backing but nevermind that); evil elite (Saddam & Co., of course), a radical change in our previous policies regarding "pre-emptive war" and the government use of torture, pro-war rallies in the streets, enough people motivated by the narrative than the war actually happened... there's all your populist/mob criteria.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 16 Nov 2017, 19:28

At the risk of derailing this thread from its proper topic ("Should we ever sympathize with anyone's economic woes? Round 2,306, 598"), Jared Kushner has absolutely terrible amnesia when it comes to anything involving Russia and the campaign.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 25 Nov 2017, 12:38

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 25 Nov 2017, 13:54

I actually doubt that this has much to do with Russia. Foreign policy "discussions" in America have been increasingly about "Whom should we be fighting? And how can we claim that no boots are on the ground while fighting them?" That's how too many in 21st century America see foreign policy. In the eyes of the average American, you don't need a State Department for that. Never mind that embassies are basically US government branch offices, useful for coordinating with allies and conducting intelligence activities. To a certain faction of Americans, the State Department is a bunch of liberal dogooders who are out of touch with the average American and spend most of their time doling out half the federal budget as foreign aid.

The Trump administration (such as it is) is the elevation of America's id above all else. So it's time to smash the State Department and be done with it. If America needs to be involved somewhere, that's what our aircraft carrier groups and overseas bases are for. (Never mind that the associated costs dwarf the State Department budget.) If the US government needs to talk to another government, we have the best deal-maker in the world to call them up and talk. Diplomats are superfluous.
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the innominate one
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 25 Nov 2017, 14:05

You may be right, but I wouldn't dismiss a Russia connection entirely. It may not be collusion, but Tillerson's allies in the oil industry would probably like to be able to work freely in Russia's fossil fuel reserves. I believe Russia is still under sanctions which discourage assistance from American and European countries in extracting oil.

Almost certainly the preference for using the macho military over the wimpy liberal diplomats figures large in their calculus as well.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 25 Nov 2017, 23:21

There's a long standing animosity towards the State department from the conservative institutional side of the GOP.

There's also seriously bloat and inefficiency within the State Department, and a consistently sub par level of professionalism* - but paradoxically, the State Department is under resourced for what the powers that be in the government ask it to do.

* I wish I could find the article from a few years ago (2011 I think) where the Iraq embassy was understaffed due to the lack of people willing to go there.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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the innominate one
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 26 Nov 2017, 08:33

I don't doubt that every federal agency has some bloat and could stand to be cut. But there's every indication that the Trump administration prefers military solutions to diplomatic ones. If people were being cut to be replaced by competent people or there was a shift in expertise pointing to a change in diplomatic strategy, that would be understandable. Maybe there is and we don't know. But the article as a whole doesn't convey that, and specifically the part where the head of security had to invoke the law to get just five minutes of attention of the secretary and then was let go suggests something else is going on other than a reorg, especially given all the lip service republicans gave to security following the attacks in Benghazi and during their endless investigations of same.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 26 Nov 2017, 11:17

Hah, that's cute you think I read the article. ;)

(I will today though)

To be clear, Donald effin Trump is not the guy to fix what's broken. It's like having cancer, and that doc from the Simpson's showing up. (Not the African American Bill Cosby analogue, the other one)
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Fin Fang Foom » 26 Nov 2017, 12:00

Dr. Nick, you philistine.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Number 6 » 26 Nov 2017, 15:16

Fin Fang Foom wrote:
26 Nov 2017, 12:00
Dr. Nick, you philistine.
The extra b is for bargain.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 01 Dec 2017, 09:33

the innominate one wrote:
06 Nov 2017, 07:50
Rumors abound that Flynn and Flynn Jr. are in like Flynn to be the next ones indicted.

Give the man with no name his prize, Johnny.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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the innominate one
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 01 Dec 2017, 09:41

Well, half right. Fingers crossed for junior.

I only know what the MSM brainwashes me to believe.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 01 Dec 2017, 10:22

And only one count of lying when they could have nailed him for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Wonder what he gave to get that.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Highway » 01 Dec 2017, 10:25

Shem wrote:And only one count of lying when they could have nailed him for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Wonder what he gave to get that.
Is that more of the "undercharge to prevent Trump from meddling with pardons" that was talked about with Manafort?
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Mo » 01 Dec 2017, 10:37

Highway wrote:
01 Dec 2017, 10:25
Shem wrote:And only one count of lying when they could have nailed him for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Wonder what he gave to get that.
Is that more of the "undercharge to prevent Trump from meddling with pardons" that was talked about with Manafort?
This is an undercharge because he flipped for a bigger fish. Either Trump, Jared or Junior* or the hat trick.

* Not entirely certain he is actually a bigger fish
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 01 Dec 2017, 11:37

Mueller should never again have to pay for his own drinks.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Mo » 01 Dec 2017, 12:24

APNEWSALERT wrote: Ex-Trump adviser Michael Flynn admits in plea that Trump transition officials directed his contacts with the Russians.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

no one ever yells worldstar when a pet gets fucked up - dhex

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Shem
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 01 Dec 2017, 12:49

Highway wrote:
01 Dec 2017, 10:25
Shem wrote:And only one count of lying when they could have nailed him for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Wonder what he gave to get that.
Is that more of the "undercharge to prevent Trump from meddling with pardons" that was talked about with Manafort?
They're partnering with the NY AG to develop state charges that are pardon-proof to get around that.
"VOTE SHEMOCRACY! You will only have to do it once!" -Loyalty Officer Aresen

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