Occam, Trump, and Russia

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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 30 Jan 2018, 12:29

Policy? I still can't get over the 2016 GOP platform language on Ukraine. While I don't personally have strong feelings about Ukraine, I find it curious that Ukraine was the one issue where Trump's campaign was willing to lock horns with GOP foreign policy insiders and rewrite platform language. Most of the people in Donald Trump's circle, if asked what "Chicken Kiev" is named for, would probably guess either a restaurant in the East Village, a city in Russia (sic), or a Russian chef.

The Don may not have known everything, but everything adds up to a picture of a deeply compromised operation. Were he not the President he would, at an absolute minimum, be ineligible for a security clearance.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 30 Jan 2018, 12:55

It's his policy to not follow the law and implement sanctions on Russia.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 30 Jan 2018, 13:06

the innominate one wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 12:55
It's his policy to not follow the law and implement sanctions on Russia.
Yep.

And even if there's no memo from the Russian Embassy saying "Per our agreement, in return for the support we gave to your campaign you must now refuse to implement sanctions" it's pretty clear that in his mind Russia is his friend, his enemies have no right to say they influenced him, and that matters more than the law. I don't much care whether he views this as an explicit quid pro quo or not, I care that he is disobeying the law to benefit a foreign power that meddled on his behalf. That's impeachable, pure and simple, regardless of whether there's a peepee tape or not.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Mo » 30 Jan 2018, 14:13

And now Paul Ryan has said we need to "cleanse" the FBI. Looks like partisan FBI purges will be the new norm.
his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 30 Jan 2018, 14:22

Mo wrote:And now Paul Ryan has said we need to "cleanse" the FBI. Looks like partisan FBI purges will be the new norm.
This will come to no good.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Aresen » 30 Jan 2018, 14:57

Mo wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 14:13
And now Paul Ryan has said we need to "cleanse" the FBI. Looks like partisan FBI purges will be the new norm.
Where is Andrei Vyshinsky when you need him?
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 30 Jan 2018, 15:27

Maybe Trump thinks The Americans ought to be real.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Painboy » 30 Jan 2018, 19:13

JasonL wrote:I don't think it takes anything at all to get this guy to act like a baby. Like, there's an investigation, he told people to stop it and they kept going now they are enemies and baby forever the end.
And nobody puts baby in a corner.

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Painboy » 30 Jan 2018, 19:34


Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 10:36
We have what Popadop, Manafort, and one other guy right? My take on Manafort is his slime trail timeline precedes the campaign. I think a lot of people feel like Popadop must have some kind of value or he wouldn't have flipped. I don't know anything about the other guy Gates I gather from google. Which one is a spy?
Carter Page is the spy. He's the one Nunez is releasing the memo to protect. And Mike Flynn also pleaded guilty. Not trying to be a dick here, but are you sure you've been paying attention?
It's all who talked to who though. I've heard very little on what they actually talked about. Glad-handing Russians isn't against the law. Those that have agreed to plea deals are likely just trying to protect themselves from any further charges the FBI can drum up on them.

I'd love to believe that this could take down Trump but I'm not seeing anything major that's going to stick.

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 30 Jan 2018, 20:40

Painboy wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 19:34
I'd love to believe that this could take down Trump but I'm not seeing anything major that's going to stick.
"Is" going to stick or "ought" to stick? Because on some level, being an accomplice to mobster money-laundering, and getting sufficiently intertwined with the mob that the Russian government heavily infiltrates your campaign, really ought to be impeachable in its own right.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Jennifer » 30 Jan 2018, 20:49

thoreau wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 20:40
Painboy wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 19:34
I'd love to believe that this could take down Trump but I'm not seeing anything major that's going to stick.
"Is" going to stick or "ought" to stick? Because on some level, being an accomplice to mobster money-laundering, and getting sufficiently intertwined with the mob that the Russian government heavily infiltrates your campaign, really ought to be impeachable in its own right.
The Republicans would sooner cut an inch off their own personal, individual dicks rather than make a move against one of their own. So long as Republicans have the majority of House and Senate seats, Trump won't be impeached. Looks like the GOP is channeling its energies toward trashing the FBI.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Shem » 30 Jan 2018, 21:54

Painboy wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 19:34
Shem wrote:
JasonL wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 10:36
We have what Popadop, Manafort, and one other guy right? My take on Manafort is his slime trail timeline precedes the campaign. I think a lot of people feel like Popadop must have some kind of value or he wouldn't have flipped. I don't know anything about the other guy Gates I gather from google. Which one is a spy?
Carter Page is the spy. He's the one Nunez is releasing the memo to protect. And Mike Flynn also pleaded guilty. Not trying to be a dick here, but are you sure you've been paying attention?
It's all who talked to who though. I've heard very little on what they actually talked about. Glad-handing Russians isn't against the law. Those that have agreed to plea deals are likely just trying to protect themselves from any further charges the FBI can drum up on them.

I'd love to believe that this could take down Trump but I'm not seeing anything major that's going to stick.
They were FISAing Carter Page for at least 9 months. They might very well still be. You don't get to do that to a campaign official unless you can show something a lot more substantial that just glad handling Russians. Especially when the guy approving the FISA warrant was appointed by the President who ran that campaign. If he doesn't cop a plea, he's going to prison or fleeing to Russia.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 30 Jan 2018, 22:18

In retrospect, the biggest problem with the pee-pee tape allegation is that it raised the bar too high: Unless Mueller's most daring agent can break into the Russian Embassy and escape with a document that says "I, Donald J. Trump, agree that, in exchange for support for my campaign and a promise to not release the kompromat file, I will do whatever Vladimir Putin tells me," everybody will say that the Russia scandal has "no there there."

But in the not-too-distant past, if a campaign got infiltrated by Russian assets after more than a decade of money-laundering for the Russian mob, any response short of "I am immediately firing everyone who was compromised and cooperating fully with the investigation" would have been met with calls for impeachment, not shoulder-shrugging over obstruction of justice.

If he gets away with this, somebody in the future will get away with even worse.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 31 Jan 2018, 01:02

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 31 Jan 2018, 08:48

Glad handing Russians that were on a sanctions list, or glad handing Russians who were a cutout to those on a sanctions list, may be against the law, but I'm too lost in the weeds to know or remember if any of that happened.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 31 Jan 2018, 09:02

Flynn was telling Russians the sanctions would be reversed when Trump took office. Pretty sure that's a clear violation of law.

I saw it claimed recently that Obamawent to McConnell with evidence about Russian activity and election interference to put out a joint statement but McConnell refused, so no statement was made, to avoid accusations of partisanship.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Eric the .5b » 31 Jan 2018, 18:34

the innominate one wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 09:02
I saw it claimed recently that Obamawent to McConnell with evidence about Russian activity and election interference to put out a joint statement but McConnell refused, so no statement was made, to avoid accusations of partisanship.
So Obama was a coward and Clinton was an incompetent campaigner, and that's why we have Trump.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Aresen » 31 Jan 2018, 18:59

Eric the .5b wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 18:34
the innominate one wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 09:02
I saw it claimed recently that Obamawent to McConnell with evidence about Russian activity and election interference to put out a joint statement but McConnell refused, so no statement was made, to avoid accusations of partisanship.
So Obama was a coward and Clinton was an incompetent campaigner, and that's why we have Trump.
I suspect that Obama putting out a statement on his own would have played more favorably for Trump.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 31 Jan 2018, 19:41

I think that was the Obama administration's purported reasoning as well. I wouldn't say Obama's a coward, but I would say McConnell is a quisling, if the story is true.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by the innominate one » 01 Feb 2018, 01:30

Someone's in trouble and someone's lying. Is it Nunes? Schiff? What is true? Who knows? This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. How did I get here?

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." -E Benn

"No shit, Sherlock." -JsubD

"now is the time to go fuck yourself until you die." -dhex

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Mo » 01 Feb 2018, 18:04

Wait, I thought McCabe resigned. Junior is definitely the dumb one.

his voice is so soothing, but why do conspiracy nuts always sound like Batman and Robin solving one of Riddler's puzzles out loud? - fod

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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by lunchstealer » 01 Feb 2018, 20:12

And 'a month before retirement' is that he's taking vacation days until they're out, and then officially retiring and starting to draw pension starting in March.

Christ these people are dumb by gov't standards.
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 01 Feb 2018, 20:15

I mean, if he had a month of vacation days before his retirement date, why was the original plan to stick around for a month rather than say "Yeah, I'm wrapping up work by late January and then taking a vacation"?

Are FBI agents really that bad at bureau-bumming? Are they as good at public employment as that "Undercover DEA Agent/Motivational Speaker" guy was at being professional enough to handle a Glock .40?
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by Kolohe » 01 Feb 2018, 20:16

Well, if you believe Hollywood, lawmen should have one big case left when they're 30 days from retirement.
when you wake up as the queen of the n=1 kingdom and mount your steed non sequiturius, do you look out upon all you survey and think “damn, it feels good to be a green idea sleeping furiously?" - dhex

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thoreau
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Re: Occam, Trump, and Russia

Post by thoreau » 01 Feb 2018, 20:23

Kolohe wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 20:16
Well, if you believe Hollywood, lawmen should have one big case left when they're 30 days from retirement.
Hollywood lawmen are as good at bureaucrating as my students are at algebraing.
"ike Wile E. Coyote salivating over a "4000 Ways To Prepare Roadrunner" cookbook without watching his surroundings, the Road Runner of Societal Inertia snuck up on them both and beepbeeped them off the mesa."
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