Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

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nicole
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 03 Apr 2019, 08:23

Jfc is there any part of that article that isn't completely, irretrievably stupid?
What some have been quick to characterize as an interest in being sober might actually be more like a search for moderation in a culture that has long treated alcohol as a dichotomy: Either you drink whenever the opportunity presents itself, or you don’t drink at all. Many Millennials—and especially the urban, college-educated consumers prized by marketers—might just be tired of drinking so much.
I could quote like five other passages equally dumb.

For example
A few decades ago, marriage and children might have moved urban, college-educated young adults away from social drinking naturally, but fewer Millennials are taking part in traditional family building, and the ones doing it are waiting longer than their parents did. Now the structure of social life isn’t that different for many people in their mid-30s than it was in their early 20s, which provides plenty of time for drinking on dates and with friends for them to start to get a little tired of it.
Millennials are extremely getting married and having children, and all the losers I've seen on my own social media feeds talking about stopping drinking have little kids.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Mo » 03 Apr 2019, 08:34

nicole wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 08:23
Millennials are extremely getting married and having children, and all the losers I've seen on my own social media feeds talking about stopping drinking have little kids.
That's what I said!
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 03 Apr 2019, 08:40

Mo wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 08:34
nicole wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 08:23
Millennials are extremely getting married and having children, and all the losers I've seen on my own social media feeds talking about stopping drinking have little kids.
That's what I said!
I know, and I was going to quote and agree with you but then I clicked through and there was so much stupid.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Hugh Akston » 03 Apr 2019, 10:40

Without clicking through, I am going to assume she quotes someone characterizing this as a larger social trend of interest in being sober. Otherwise readers might get the impression that her claim that "some have been quick to characterize" is completely made up.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Andrew » 03 Apr 2019, 14:03

I'm a borderline snake person, and most snake people I know are serious drinkers. Then again, I know lots of lawyers. That might be a factor.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Apr 2019, 14:15

I'm not sure much has changed since roughly forever. Boomers may have more disposable cash to help their kids than previous generations, but plenty of boomer kids spent much of their 20s still living with their parents, looking for jobs they thought worthy of their liberal arts degrees, etc. Those who didn't lived with roommates. There really weren't even all that many condominiums in the 60s and 70s as "starter homes" and interest rates (not to mention inflation) made first home purchases all the more difficult. My father paid for my college and my wife's mother helped with our first house down-payment.

You watch old movies and, never mind the deplorably small houses and luxury-free lifestyles, but it was certainly not exceptional for grown children to continue living with their parents. If anything, it was more like the rule.

We paid for our sons' college and even 'invested' in our older son's first start-up. Our younger son will be nearly 24 when he graduates from college this year, but his birthday fell such that he was nearly seven when he started first grade, he repeated a year in high school (at my insistence; the school was perfectly happy to socially promote him) and took a gap year between high school and college, also at our insistence; so it isn't as though he's dawdled through adolescence and early adulthood. For that matter, I knew lots and lots of people who hung around their college towns for years after graduating, working in restaurants and such, or who made a beeline for grad school of some sort to put off "the real world" a while longer. Had my father not moved to Florida, where I decidedly did not want to live, but stayed in Northern Virginia instead, I'd have probably continued to live with him for much longer.

If anything, the "norm" of kids graduating from school, getting a job pretty much right off the bat and moving out on their own was probably always the exception to the real rule and completely anathema to most non-Anglo cultures. We invented the nuclear family and it turned out it doesn't work all that well for all that many people for all that long. As with so many other aspects of millennial culture, the only real difference is that they have social media with which they can simultaneously bitch about how hard they have it and show off how well they're doing. Big deal.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Hugh Akston » 03 Apr 2019, 15:42

Andrew wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 14:03
I'm a borderline snake person, and most snake people I know are serious drinkers. Then again, I know lots of lawyers. That might be a factor.
Sorry, what's the distinction between lawyer and snake person?
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by D.A. Ridgely » 03 Apr 2019, 15:44

Hugh Akston wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 15:42
Andrew wrote:
03 Apr 2019, 14:03
I'm a borderline snake person, and most snake people I know are serious drinkers. Then again, I know lots of lawyers. That might be a factor.
Sorry, what's the distinction between lawyer and snake person?
Passing the bar exam.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 05 Apr 2019, 14:44

"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 05 Apr 2019, 16:20

That was dumb. Hey lady, you thought the movie was a life guide for how to beat jocks or something something? I'm sure it doesn't hold up for any number of reasons but ffs.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 16:34

I read that elsewhere, but (with the exception of the content-warning suggestion), I honestly can't figure out if this is eyerolly, or a legit example of "Yeah, different generations WILL view things differently."
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by lunchstealer » 05 Apr 2019, 16:37

i think the biggest problem is that she has no fucking clue how much better things are these days. School shootings are WAY THE FUCK DOWN from the time of Heathers. If anything we should've been more triggered than kids these days. Bullying wasn't cyber, and school shootings were a more regular occurrence, not less. Columbine wasn't a thing yet, but Stockton was.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 16:46

lunchstealer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:37
i think the biggest problem is that she has no fucking clue how much better things are these days. School shootings are WAY THE FUCK DOWN from the time of Heathers. If anything we should've been more triggered than kids these days. Bullying wasn't cyber, and school shootings were a more regular occurrence, not less. Columbine wasn't a thing yet, but Stockton was.
I was actually thinking about an apparently unrelated thing which might in fact be connected -- something about how humor (particularly black humor or dark comedy) changes based on what actual real (or perceived) threats are. Specifically, I was watching some early-season episodes of Family Guy and South Park, compared to recent episodes -- the early seasons, both had lots of "edgy" anti-Semitic humor (in both cases coming from characters who were clearly reprehensible -- Eric Cartman, Peter Griffin, Carter Pewterschmidt, etc.). But recent seasons don't seem to have that -- perhaps because now, the idea "Such blatant anti-semitism must surely be in the past" no longer holds, not when we have an actual sitting POTUS who says nice things about literal swastika-waving Nazis. And when Heathers first came out, the idea that any mere high school kid could be as thoroughly evil as Christian Slater's character seemed almost as ridiculous, perhaps.

In other words, maybe certain types of black comedy only work for things which are CLEARLY ridiculous and over-the-top -- and the Heathers plotline doesn't seem as ridiculous today as it did in 1989.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 05 Apr 2019, 17:13

I think the biggest problem is the person explicitly acknowledges that the movie is "dark comedy" and "satire" but then still thinks you're supposed to want to emulate Christian Slater.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 05 Apr 2019, 17:15

Jennifer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:46
lunchstealer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:37
i think the biggest problem is that she has no fucking clue how much better things are these days. School shootings are WAY THE FUCK DOWN from the time of Heathers. If anything we should've been more triggered than kids these days. Bullying wasn't cyber, and school shootings were a more regular occurrence, not less. Columbine wasn't a thing yet, but Stockton was.
I was actually thinking about an apparently unrelated thing which might in fact be connected -- something about how humor (particularly black humor or dark comedy) changes based on what actual real (or perceived) threats are. Specifically, I was watching some early-season episodes of Family Guy and South Park, compared to recent episodes -- the early seasons, both had lots of "edgy" anti-Semitic humor (in both cases coming from characters who were clearly reprehensible -- Eric Cartman, Peter Griffin, Carter Pewterschmidt, etc.). But recent seasons don't seem to have that -- perhaps because now, the idea "Such blatant anti-semitism must surely be in the past" no longer holds, not when we have an actual sitting POTUS who says nice things about literal swastika-waving Nazis. And when Heathers first came out, the idea that any mere high school kid could be as thoroughly evil as Christian Slater's character seemed almost as ridiculous, perhaps.

In other words, maybe certain types of black comedy only work for things which are CLEARLY ridiculous and over-the-top -- and the Heathers plotline doesn't seem as ridiculous today as it did in 1989.
Heathers wouldn't be a movie about how stupid adult hysteria about teen behaviors is if adults hadn't been hysterical about teen behaviors in the 80s.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Andrew » 05 Apr 2019, 17:26

That's one of those Gen X movies I've still never seen, which is probably another data point that I'm a leading edge snake person and not a trailing Xer.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 17:27

nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 17:15
Jennifer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:46
lunchstealer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:37
i think the biggest problem is that she has no fucking clue how much better things are these days. School shootings are WAY THE FUCK DOWN from the time of Heathers. If anything we should've been more triggered than kids these days. Bullying wasn't cyber, and school shootings were a more regular occurrence, not less. Columbine wasn't a thing yet, but Stockton was.
I was actually thinking about an apparently unrelated thing which might in fact be connected -- something about how humor (particularly black humor or dark comedy) changes based on what actual real (or perceived) threats are. Specifically, I was watching some early-season episodes of Family Guy and South Park, compared to recent episodes -- the early seasons, both had lots of "edgy" anti-Semitic humor (in both cases coming from characters who were clearly reprehensible -- Eric Cartman, Peter Griffin, Carter Pewterschmidt, etc.). But recent seasons don't seem to have that -- perhaps because now, the idea "Such blatant anti-semitism must surely be in the past" no longer holds, not when we have an actual sitting POTUS who says nice things about literal swastika-waving Nazis. And when Heathers first came out, the idea that any mere high school kid could be as thoroughly evil as Christian Slater's character seemed almost as ridiculous, perhaps.

In other words, maybe certain types of black comedy only work for things which are CLEARLY ridiculous and over-the-top -- and the Heathers plotline doesn't seem as ridiculous today as it did in 1989.
Heathers wouldn't be a movie about how stupid adult hysteria about teen behaviors is if adults hadn't been hysterical about teen behaviors in the 80s.
Adults have always been hysterical about teen behaviors, and always will be.

Just re-skimmed the article, and here's a quote to support my "Meh, times have simply changed" thesis:
I had high expectations for “Heathers.” .... But when my roommates and I started watching, the movie rubbed us the wrong way from the start. For my generation, the way to beat the popular girls and the jocks in 2019 isn’t to stoop lower than they are on the moral totem pole. Our technique is to vent on Twitter and let the likes and retweets console you. No crimes required.
Obviously, venting on social media wasn't an option for kids in 1989.

Another "maybe unrelated, or maybe not" example: a couple times I've mentioned the now-current controversy over the song "Baby, It's Cold Outside":
Jennifer wrote:
16 Dec 2016, 12:56
Even though the song Baby It's Cold Outside is older than my parents, I was not aware of it until a couple years ago, when I first read an article on the theme "This song is terrible and promotes rape." But ... I listened to the song, and read the lyrics, and I still don't see it. The only way that interpretation even makes semi-sense to me is if you read it with the interpretation "Modern liberated sexual mores have always applied--there was never, ever a time when women were raised to believe that 'nice girls' never wanted or even thought about sex until they were legally wed and about to embark on their honeymoon."

When you read the "woman's" lyrics, it's obvious she wants to stay at the man's house, but she's worried about what other people will think of her if she does -- "My sister will be suspicious, my maiden aunt's mind is vicious...."
Then, after some discussion with others here, I said:
Jennifer wrote:
16 Dec 2016, 14:39
There will always be courtship rituals, sure, but which specific rituals are determined in large part by society. Going back to what I said in my first post -- that the "rapey" connotations of the song only make sense if you ignore the whole "Nice women don't want sex" idea -- if a modern American teenage girl hears that song for the first time and is appalled by the lyrics, in a way I think that's kind of a good thing, in that it suggests the girl has NOT been raised with such an idea.

Perhaps it's a generational thing -- I'm mid-Gen X, born after Gloria Steinem, The Pill and second-wave feminism, but with the double standard still going strong: "Sexually active men are admirable studs; sexually active women are contemptible sluts." Even though I'm a full generation younger than that song {EDIT: More than that; a quick Google search says it was written in 1944}, I was still raised to be familiar with that attitude. And its nastier flipside, as well: "If a man is attracted to you, that is an honor, and while you're not necessarily obliged to return his romantic feelings, you are obliged to let him down as easily as possible, so as not to hurt his pride." (The more toxic versions of this attitude can be found among those men who insist that, say, catcalling is good clean fun, whereas women who object to it are mean-spirited snobs.) Even when I was single, I'd usually make mention of a non-existent boyfriend when turning down an offer for a date, rather than rely solely on claiming already existing plans. It's more "acceptable" to turn down an offer of romance if some guy already has a "claim" to you.

Going back to what Jadagul said about creepy interpretations of the song -- "If you think she genuinely doesn't want to sleep with him, the song is _really creepy_." Yeah, I can agree with that, but again -- that says more about the cultural attitudes of the day: if a woman does want sex she's not supposed to admit it, and if she doesn't want sex she's not supposed to admit that either, lest she hurt the man's all-important feelings. Any society where the female sex drive is considered immoral unless the men are happy with it is going to have fucked up attitudes about sexuality.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 17:36

Heh, just-now remembered "unrelated yet related" anecdote number three (originally about some then-new facepalmery from POTUS Trump, seguing into an interesting bit about Jane Austen):
Jennifer wrote:
06 Aug 2016, 15:28
Related: that BuzzFeed article reminds me of a comment I read on a Metafilter thread once, explaining that "High school is the world of Jane Austen." Basically: when Jane Austen stories are remade and set in modern times, the stories are always set in high schools, because in our modern society that's the only place you'll find with the artificial social constraints of Jane Austen's world. I can sympathize and even empathize with a kid still stuck in middle or high school who is worried about such matters but -- to paraphrase something I wrote on a thread here once, though I can't remember the context: "Dude! I too was unpopular in high school, but I got over it within, like, five minutes of graduation."

So I can sympathize with a high school kid worried about social status in the limited confines of high school, but roll my eyes at a grown-ass adult who is still trying to get in with the in-crowd of his high school days: you are no longer confined to that narrow, limited world! Why do you still behave as though you are? And similarly, with Trump: why ignore the entire rest of the world to focus on this narrow, self-absorbed clique? Is your emotional growth that stunted, that you're trapped in perpetual teenager-hood?
Someone on metafilter a few years ago wrote:Actually, I have this theory I like to call "High school is the World of Jane Austen." I think movies and TV shows like to set things in high schools because they can create artificial constraints on characters' behavior and force characters to continue interacting and to compete for limited goods (social status, boyfriends, etc.) from within a limited pool. It's tricky to modernize Jane Austen because people aren't trapped in a limited social world with very limited life choices -- today Lizzie Bennet and Darcy could get married with no real social stigma, but Lizzie would have gone off to Princeton on a fencing scholarship anyway and majored in anthropology and interned at a snarky feminist magazine based in NYC. But! If you stick the characters in an American high school, they have a limited pool of other humans to interact with and a limited set of life choices available and they must try to achieve status and success within that constrained milieu, as Austen's characters did. Which is why "Clueless" is such a successful update of "Emma."

Anyway, if you're creating The World of Jane Austen for your fictional TV show or movie, you probably want to play up the cliques, to limit social mobility choices for your character, and the bullying, to create some real danger in the world, and you want to play down parental or other competent adult involvement, because if your characters can appeal to someone outside the World to rescue them from the awfulness of the World, your plot will fall apart. (See: the recent revival of 90210, which I watch with great glee, but I constantly wonder, "Why are there no adults even a little bit involved with these adolescents??? This is a common adolescent problem that would be solved in thirty seconds by a single competent parent or teacher NOTICING IT'S GOING ON.") You also want the adults to serve mostly as a stringent source of governing power that can abuse the students or help the students, seemingly at random, and can be rebelled against and sometimes defeated, but is rarely there to assist.

If you think about updates of Austen and Shakespeare, so so many of them are set in high schools -- 10 Things I Hate About You (Taming of the Shrew), Clueless (Emma), She's the Man (Twelfth Night), O (Othello), West Side Story (Romeo & Juliet) -- because if you can't limit the social mobility of the characters, the stories don't work.

I have more examples if I think about it, but I think I have to go watch Clueless now.
Humor -- perhaps especially black humor --- is arguably the most "context-dependent" (or even zeitgeist-dependent) type of literary or artistic output, so it's no surprise if it's the least likely to age well.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 05 Apr 2019, 18:23

Jennifer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 17:27
nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 17:15
Jennifer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:46
lunchstealer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 16:37
i think the biggest problem is that she has no fucking clue how much better things are these days. School shootings are WAY THE FUCK DOWN from the time of Heathers. If anything we should've been more triggered than kids these days. Bullying wasn't cyber, and school shootings were a more regular occurrence, not less. Columbine wasn't a thing yet, but Stockton was.
I was actually thinking about an apparently unrelated thing which might in fact be connected -- something about how humor (particularly black humor or dark comedy) changes based on what actual real (or perceived) threats are. Specifically, I was watching some early-season episodes of Family Guy and South Park, compared to recent episodes -- the early seasons, both had lots of "edgy" anti-Semitic humor (in both cases coming from characters who were clearly reprehensible -- Eric Cartman, Peter Griffin, Carter Pewterschmidt, etc.). But recent seasons don't seem to have that -- perhaps because now, the idea "Such blatant anti-semitism must surely be in the past" no longer holds, not when we have an actual sitting POTUS who says nice things about literal swastika-waving Nazis. And when Heathers first came out, the idea that any mere high school kid could be as thoroughly evil as Christian Slater's character seemed almost as ridiculous, perhaps.

In other words, maybe certain types of black comedy only work for things which are CLEARLY ridiculous and over-the-top -- and the Heathers plotline doesn't seem as ridiculous today as it did in 1989.
Heathers wouldn't be a movie about how stupid adult hysteria about teen behaviors is if adults hadn't been hysterical about teen behaviors in the 80s.
Adults have always been hysterical about teen behaviors, and always will be.

Just re-skimmed the article, and here's a quote to support my "Meh, times have simply changed" thesis:
I had high expectations for “Heathers.” .... But when my roommates and I started watching, the movie rubbed us the wrong way from the start. For my generation, the way to beat the popular girls and the jocks in 2019 isn’t to stoop lower than they are on the moral totem pole. Our technique is to vent on Twitter and let the likes and retweets console you. No crimes required.
Obviously, venting on social media wasn't an option for kids in 1989.
Yet most unpopular kids in 1989 also did not take direct action against the popular kids, let alone commit crimes against them. They talked to their unpopular friends about how much Heather sucked, which, by the way, is at least *kind of* a shitty thing to do--just like shit-talking people on social media for attention and sympathy actually is also stooping morally. And, by the way, if the person is suggesting that teenage girls aren't passive-aggressively bitchy to each other anymore...lol. I mean, this is just not sound.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 18:32

nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:23
Yet most unpopular kids in 1989 also did not take direct action against the popular kids, let alone commit crimes against them.
I suspect few teenagers of any post-motion-picture era act like the characters in whatever comedies are marketed to them.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jadagul » 05 Apr 2019, 18:37

One of my friends is really excited about Heathers and tried to make me watch it a couple weeks ago. I tapped out after about five minutes because I couldn't take it seriously and it was super unpleasant.

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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 05 Apr 2019, 18:50

Jadagul wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:37
One of my friends is really excited about Heathers and tried to make me watch it a couple weeks ago. I tapped out after about five minutes because I couldn't take it seriously and it was super unpleasant.
It really might be one of those things where you had to have been there, so to speak. I recall a long-ago Facebook post I made on the theme "Re-watched The Lost Boys for the first time since back in the day -- way cheesier than I remember, but the soundtrack still kicks ass," and someone -- I think Mediageek -- said that he'd recently tried watching it for the first time ever, but plain didn't get the appeal and figured it was one of those "You had to be there" things. Maybe Heathers really only works for people who were alive and of a certain age in the late 80s or early 90s.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Warren » 05 Apr 2019, 20:40

nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 14:44
Just smh at this one https://www.thewrap.com/im-24-and-just- ... ime-yikes/
Now I really want to watch a reaction video of the author and her friends watching Blue Velvet.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Andrew » 06 Apr 2019, 01:06

Warren wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 20:40
nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 14:44
Just smh at this one https://www.thewrap.com/im-24-and-just- ... ime-yikes/
Now I really want to watch a reaction video of the author and her friends watching Blue Velvet.
I was thinking American Psycho, but perhaps she would manage to figure out it's a comedy.
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 06 Apr 2019, 06:12

Jennifer wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:32
nicole wrote:
05 Apr 2019, 18:23
Yet most unpopular kids in 1989 also did not take direct action against the popular kids, let alone commit crimes against them.
I suspect few teenagers of any post-motion-picture era act like the characters in whatever comedies are marketed to them.
Well that’s kind of the premise of the whole column
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