Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 14:26

The message I got my whole life is “you pay your way in the world better figure out how”.

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nicole
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 14:40

JasonL wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 14:20
I can’t digest the willful blindness into college years. You can’t know anything about the world at all and think someone can promise you great outcomes really really.

I can only make sense of it as some kind of thing like The Secret where you choose to replace what you know with wishes and fairy dust because what you know isn’t fun. In which case- fuck you, you big baby.
But...the question is about them not being blind anymore. They're saying, "you lied to us." You're saying you don't understand how they believe the lies. The point is they no longer believe the lies.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 14:59

But ... come on, yeah they don't believe and they are 30 now. Do they still hold Santa Claus against their parents, or is there some thing that's like "oh yeah life can't possibly work that way" they should have worked through in their teens? This idea that unlike any previous generation this type of parenting imprinted directly on the souls of avotoastians such that there was no reason to question ... come on.

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nicole
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 15:04

I don’t know why you’re going back to “no reason to question” when you just said it’s not about that but about getting over being wronged.

I don’t believe in forgiving one’s parents, of course, but if normal psychological development is the willingness to inflict the same set of injustices on another generation, millennials seem to be doing just fine.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 15:47

You and I see this differently for a lot of reasons but one of them is kinda like - a 10 year old may have a set of expectations about the world that is wholly unreasonable - almost certainly does have those expectations. You don't give a 10 year old whatever they want nor subject them to the state of nature outcomes they might otherwise experience because they are limited, they are maybe not even evaluatable as stupid - they are undeveloped. The tradeoff is mommy takes care of things but subjects you to rules and constraints in the process. Then, over time, development occurs, both because the inputs from mommy change and because the set of experiences you have interacts with your brainstuffs in such a way that you can hold more complex truths, project to a future state, evaluate probable outcomes etc. At some point in there, no magic age, you are reasonably adult like in your capacity to digest.

Where this narrative drives me crazy is it acts as though the inputs of mommy are the only thing happening. The emergent moral agent is not responsible for anything so long as mommy says everything will be okay. All manner of evidence to the contrary is being processed - history classes, predator prey models, entropy, scarcity, poverty, life in other countries, etc. So, yeah, is there variance in how long mommy is telling you a feel good story and can that be harmful in the near term, sure Ill accept that. But all that other stuff is still happening and you have to be choosing to ignore it. If you do russian literature and never once google "job prospects russian literature" that's on you kid.

There is an inconsistency in a desire to see young children as competent moral agents but then failing to hold them accountable even at much later ages for evaluating literally anything.

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Jennifer
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Jennifer » 11 Feb 2019, 16:48

JasonL wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 14:59
Do they still hold Santa Claus against their parents,
If their belief in Santa Claus led them, when they were too young to really understand what they were doing, to go over their heads in bankruptcy-proof debt for reasons which, they were told, would lead to better life outcomes but actually made them worse off, and furthermore it wasn't just their parents telling them "Go into debt to make Santa happy" but also their teachers and counselors and government and etc. etc. -- in that case, I wouldn't blame them one bit for still holding a Santa-shaped grudge.
"Myself, despite what they say about libertarians, I think we're actually allowed to pursue options beyond futility or sucking the dicks of the powerful." -- Eric the .5b

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nicole
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by nicole » 11 Feb 2019, 16:59

Well, I didn't think merely the question "were millennials lied to about hard work leading to success" brought Russian literature into it. I mean, I'm not not-successful, but that doesn't mean I don't think I was lied to generally about the risks vs. rewards of life and hard work, value of college, etc. It's not like this stuff only applies if you're a barista with a BA or whatever. I think my parents were like, unbelievably, pathetically naive in their decision to have kids. Things like my dad always saying how much he hates work and working sucks, but...I mean, I was going to have to work. Did he think I wouldn't? No, he just thought I like, wouldn't mind it or something. Or, he lied to both of us about how hard I would have to work, and how worth the rewards it would be.

Every generation sells the next one a bill of goods because otherwise we'd have mass parricide.
"Fucking qualia." -Hugh Akston

"This is why I carry a shoehorn.” -jadagul

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JasonL
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by JasonL » 11 Feb 2019, 17:57

It is not the general case I suspect that parents who say they hate work have no other joys that compensate. The parental vibe is something like they can’t know how you’ll evaluate your joys and miseries really but lots and lots of people find that there are decent trade offs between miseries of work and what that can provide in the way of choices for positive experiences.


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Eric the .5b
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Eric the .5b » 11 Feb 2019, 18:19

So this is where the, "OMG, the capitalist system is evil because it, like, demands I expend effort in order to survive." business comes from—people unwilling to go so far as yammer about "mass parricide".
"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by dhex » 11 Feb 2019, 20:14

"I expected a single sentence to cover all possible outcomes and destinies"

To be fair one of my earliest memories is my father showing me his wallet and being told "the amount of money you have in there is directly proportional to the amount of freedom you have in America." I was probably 5-6 years old.
"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

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thoreau
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by thoreau » 11 Feb 2019, 20:21

Obviously he should have told you that the amount of freedom you have in America is why you have no excuse for not having a full wallet. Anything else is a failure to teach responsibility.

That or he shouldn't have had you because having kids is wrong.

Geez this thread is fucked.
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--Hugh

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Eric the .5b
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by Eric the .5b » 11 Feb 2019, 20:42

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."
"Cyberpunk never really gave the government enough credit for their ability to secure a favorable prenup during the Corporate-State wedding." - Shem

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dhex
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Re: Fragments of an avotoast anthropology

Post by dhex » 11 Feb 2019, 21:37

thoreau wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 20:21
Obviously he should have told you that the amount of freedom you have in America is why you have no excuse for not having a full wallet. Anything else is a failure to teach responsibility.

That or he shouldn't have had you because having kids is wrong.

Geez this thread is fucked.
Thoreau the moral of that story is my dad is crazy bad with small children
"I do wear my New Balance tennis shoes when I'm wearing cargo shorts, though, because truth in advertising." - lunch

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